Is Bush confined to the USA ?

[Silurian]

Originally Posted by Silurian
Do you think that it is ok to torture people by slicing there penis with razor blades.
Then let them heal.
Then do it again.

And what is this in reference to?

Do you think the people responsible should be convicted of torture?

 

[GhostWriter16]

Furthermore, how do you proove someone is an enemy combatant without going through a trial first? Individuals are almost always presumed innocent until proven guilty (I can't remember if that is in the Declaration of Human Rights or not.) in western common law. Remember, accusation is not proof.

Well, if they are shooting at you, you can know.

That said, I agree basically with this. This is the main reason I oppose it, they were never proven guilty.

 

[El_Machinae]

Ajidica seems to be the most likely to benefit from this tidbit, though budding lawyers (or people with legal hobbies) might also want to know that Georgia State University put their lectures on International Law (you know, what they teach law students) onto iTunes for free download.

It's a free course, in what lawyers pay great $$$ to learn.

 

[bathsheba666]

Wow just wow.

Alright I'm sticking to the main forums from now on.

You will be missed.

Unlike the non-enemy non-combatants.....

 

[MobBoss]

So inducing immediate and uncontrollable fear responses to extract information or to serve as punishment for an attempted action (which has not been proven) is not torture?

Well, by your own definition it doesnt unless it inflicts severe physical or mental pain.

My point is simply uncontrollable fear =/= severe mental pain.

Links please!

No links, but just the simple fact offered that GWB was indeed advised of it in that way. I assume we can both agree those advising the President can be labeled 'professionals'?

3 confirmed times. Please demonstrate to me how a method on interrogation that is 'no worse then being dunked in the pool'

I never said it was 'no worse than', I merely said the fear response stems from the same place - a fear of drowning. Do you disagree?

At least be accurate in quoting me please. Thanks.

This is the point: .
You are here: ------------------------------>

Yeah, one of my children tried to tell me that. Guess its going around with the kids these days.

 

[sonorakitch]

(throughly disproven) opinion that waterboarding was legal.

Seriously, lets run with this a little. I've spent a lot of time over the last few years actually trying to verify this and haven't really been able too. All I find on the issue is punditry.

Do we have specific case citations anywhere regarding this? Can anybody provide an element of truth to this "throughly disproven" notion in the halls of American judicial history? I'm sure we can find case history which might have included waterboarding among other forms of "torture", but can we actually prove waterboarding is torture, right here?

I would really like some clarification from you guys, because I haven't been able to find a concrete example anywhere. Only punditry and "scholarly interpretation".

~Chris

 

[Verbose]

Seriously, lets run with this a little. I've spent a lot of time over the last few years actually trying to verify this and haven't really been able too. All I find on the issue is punditry.

Do we have specific case citations anywhere regarding this? Can anybody provide an element of truth to this "throughly disproven" notion in the halls of American judicial history? I'm sure we can find case history which might have included waterboarding among other forms of "torture", but can we actually prove waterboarding is torture, right here?

I would really like some clarification from you guys, because I haven't been able to find a concrete example anywhere. Only punditry and "scholarly interpretation".

~Chris

Isn't there something about not resorting to things "cruel and unusual"? That's waterboarding down pat. The US probably never before has resorted to it, so a precedent might need to be established? Which so far has been successfully dodged it seems?

 

[Formaldehyde]

Seriously, lets run with this a little. I've spent a lot of time over the last few years actually trying to verify this and haven't really been able too. All I find on the issue is punditry.

You mean like the Japanese soldiers who were hanged for those very war crimes in WWII, the US solider who was court-martialed in the Philipines in 1902, the US soldier who was court-martialed in Vietnam, and the Texas sheriff and his deputies who were tried and convicted of waterboarding? Those sorts of specific cases?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10215077&postcount=315

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding

 

[MobBoss]

Isn't there something about not resorting to things "cruel and unusual"? That's waterboarding down pat. The US probably never before has resorted to it, so a precedent might need to be established? Which so far has been successfully dodged it seems?

Interrogation =/= punishment for a crime.

 

[Ajidica]

No links, but just the simple fact offered that GWB was indeed advised of it in that way. I assume we can both agree those advising the President can be labeled 'professionals'?

So, you are trusting attorneys who have no medical or psychological experiance and who were instructed by Bush to find a way to waterboard?

I never said it was 'no worse than', I merely said the fear response stems from the same place - a fear of drowning. Do you disagree?

At least be accurate in quoting me please. Thanks.

Could you also be accurate in quoting me?
Anyhow, what is the point of asserting that the fear stems from the same place? That is like asserting that the fear of lacerations comes from the same place you get scared of papercuts from. Not relavent and hardly enlightening.

Yeah, one of my children tried to tell me that. Guess its going around with the kids these days.

Two people asserting the exact same thing? Shouldn't take a genius to understand the implications.

 

[Formaldehyde]

So, you are trusting attorneys who have no medical or psychological experiance and who were instructed by Bush to find a way to waterboard?

What's wrong with that? Isn't that typically how major corporations violate the law with little or no consequences?

Could you also be accurate in quoting me?

Sorry. That's a one-way street going the other way.

That is like asserting that the fear of lacerations comes from the same place you get scared of papercuts from.

That is just an allegation. There is no way you can prove that US government officials severely cut that detainee's genitals multiple times in a secret CIA facility. All that video tape has mysteriously disappeared.

Two people asserting the exact same thing?

That isn't proof either. It could be a conspiracy.

 

[Silurian]

From The Guardian

They took the scalpel to my right chest. It was only a small cut. Maybe an inch. At first I just screamed ... I was just shocked, I wasn't expecting ... Then they cut my left chest. This time I didn't want to scream because I knew it was coming.

One of them took my penis in his hand and began to make cuts. He did it once, and they stood still for maybe a minute, watching my reaction. I was in agony. They must have done this 20 to 30 times, in maybe two hours. There was blood all over. "I told you I was going to teach you who's the man," [one] eventually said.

They cut all over my private parts. One of them said it would be better just to cut it off, as I would only breed terrorists. I asked for a doctor.

Doctor No 1 carried a briefcase. "You're all right, aren't you? But I'm going to say a prayer for you." Doctor No 2 gave me an Alka-Seltzer for the pain. I told him about my penis. "I need to see it. How did this happen?" I told him. He looked like it was just another patient. "Put this cream on it two times a day. Morning and night." He gave me some kind of antibiotic.

I was in Morocco for 18 months. Once they began this, they would do it to me about once a month. One time I asked a guard: "What's the point of this? I've got nothing I can say to them. I've told them everything I possibly could."

"As far as I know, it's just to degrade you. So when you leave here, you'll have these scars and you'll never forget. So you'll always fear doing anything but what the US wants

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&so...0YWMDQ&usg=AFQjCNGtxbbQ-xHB9sFQgllIOat8Ms1UIA

Who does not think the person responsible for sending this person here for this to happen should not be tried for torture.

 

[Formaldehyde]

I'm sure he was just hallucinating all that to make the US look bad. He may have even cut his own penis numerous times to frame us. Do you have any sort of proof that any of this actually happened, instead of having to take the word of a suspected terrorist?

 

[Silurian]

He could have been playing water polo and someone dropped a razor blade in the pool.

 

[Me,myself,and,I]

Alright in retrospect I sounded kinda like a jerk back there. Still I'm not gonna hang around since your worldview is simply not compatible.

 

[JollyRoger]

Interrogation =/= punishment for a crime.

Absolutely. If something is too harsh to be considered legal punishment, it should surely be deemed to harsh to be considered legal interrogation.

 

[MobBoss]

So, you are trusting attorneys who have no medical or psychological experiance and who were instructed by Bush to find a way to waterboard?

Where is the evidence Bush instructed them to find a way to waterboard? Thats a first I havent heard before.

Could you also be accurate in quoting me?

I have been and I expect the same in return.

Anyhow, what is the point of asserting that the fear stems from the same place? That is like asserting that the fear of lacerations comes from the same place you get scared of papercuts from. Not relavent and hardly enlightening.

The point is simply that its tied to an uncontrolable response.

@Siluran: so you simply accept all that as truth on its face without a shred of evidence to substantiate it?

 

[Brian Shanahan]

Alright in retrospect I sounded kinda like a jerk back there. Still I'm not gonna hang around since your worldview is simply not compatible.

Compatible with what? We are just taking the law, and the real world into account and coming to an informed decision about one of the most reprehensible periods in America's history.

 

[Formaldehyde]

But it is clearly contrary with reactionary USA#1 dogmatism to do so. The only thing left to do is to apparently deny the mountain of facts which exist that clearly shows otherwise. At least that seems to be the only argument presented in this thread in rebuttal so far.

 

[MobBoss]

One thing that is pertinent I think to this thread.

You all do know that insurgents are trained to allege torture and mistreatment even if none occurs correct? Its an attempt to exploit what they see within us as weakness, and they know full well that there will be many that will believe any allegation, regardless of how wild it is. This is at its root simply disinformation meant to discredit the very people we depend upon to protect our nation. Either you buy into it based upon simple allegation...or you dont.

Also, I am not saying that the case in every instance. I dont pretend that our people are angels either, and that assuredly people cross lines. But such allegations are meant to over-hype such issues and cripple our ability to effectively counter them.