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Is Byzantium OP?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Meowzer, Sep 18, 2020.

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Is Byzantium OP?

Poll closed Nov 18, 2020.
  1. Yes

    27.6%
  2. No

    15.0%
  3. Too soon to tell

    57.5%
  1. Meowzer

    Meowzer Warlord

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    A lot of people are saying Byzantium looks OP.
    Do you agree?
     
  2. Sostratus

    Sostratus Deity

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    In comparison to most civs i think they will be near the top of the power curve.

    It's really hard to appreciate the free knight spam, which IMO alone puts them ahead of most military civs. Then they get the siege ability, which just breaks cavalry completely.
    Keep in mind that urban defenses cannot be mitigated like ancient and medieval can (except with Akkad.) But Heavy cav hit harder and run faster than melee/AC do. So Basil's Boys can bring in the old civ5 frigate tactic of just parking an army out of range, possibly in FoW, and then blitzing in to take the city in 1 turn with knights/cuirs/tanks. No one else can do that with cavalry. He doesn't even need bombers. Just blitz blitz blitz.
     
    Jkchart, nzcamel and Tiger Genocide like this.
  3. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    I think it's too soon to say. For starters, killing units just promotes your religion, it doesn't remove other religions, based on the videos.

    Secondly, you have to be prime your pump. Start your religion game strong to get your military bonuses.
     
    Jkchart, Datgingah, Kjimmet and 3 others like this.
  4. hhhhhh

    hhhhhh Prince

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    Too soon to tell.

    They need a lot of culture (to unlock UU and Mercenary) but doesn't have a good way of generating it. Faith-wise they get a little bit help but not super powerful. IF they started rolling then they can be OP, but it's not straightforward to pull the strings. Of course they are way better than Spain. But are they as good as the top domination Civ like Hungary, Gran Colombia and Scythia? Not necessarily.

    That being said, it might be interesting to do something like Religious Victory without religious units with them. When you kill enough people the world will start to follow your belief, huh...?
     
  5. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    Considering they will want to build a Hippodrome in every city all they need to do is plop down Theater Squares next to them now that EC gives adjacency bonuses for them.
    Plus Holy Sites are also good for culture especially if you can get relics. I see them at least producing more culture than science.
     
    nzcamel and Galvatron like this.
  6. 8housesofelixir

    8housesofelixir Emperor

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    And they have no bonuses towards science yields while using district slots in things like UD and TS, unless trying to grab a science-generating belief.

    So, too soon to tell.
     
    Pietato likes this.
  7. Buktu

    Buktu Prince

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    I think they look strong but not OP. You need to build holy sites early to get the religion to trigger alot of those pros which puts you behind in every other aspect. Imo the best religion is choral music + crusade so you can generate all the culture you need to get to divine right asap. Unfortunately choral music tends to get picked first so you have to rush even harder to get it.
    Then again you need to sacrifice even more district slots to build entertainment complexes for your UU spam. You also want at least one encampment to generate GGs. So there is less space for science/financial districts.
     
    JesseS, Kjimmet, acluewithout and 2 others like this.
  8. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    I agree with @Eagle Pursuit

    Rome 2: Religious Bugaloo and Greek Robert the Bruce looks awesome, but there’s a lot of faff to get all the bonuses.

    First, found a Religion, which is still work even with the extra prophet points, so maybe slower start. EC unit bonus is like the RND free ship, where you’re paying half price and then also deducting the unit cost. Good deal in terms of hammers, but you can’t use Cav production card / mercenaries upgrade and are still using a district slot. You’re already building Holy Sites (that get extra Faith once you found your Religion). You didn’t want that District slot for a Campus or TD or Gold District? Don’t you want Great Generals? Cav v Walls is awesome - but you do have to spread your Religion first.

    Holy City thing will be interesting. +3 for your own is handy. Probably need to conquer Holy Cities at least initially. Interesting dynamic. I think a lot will hinge on how strong Basil the Bruce’s Religious Pressure thing is.

    No early land UU, but you’re maybe at least +3 after you get your Religion. So, early game seems mostly tame. Strong once you get going, but everyone is sort of. Don’t think Spain has anything to worry about - they do lots of other stuff too, which Byzantium don’t. And whatever, Spain is just fun, and fun is all that matters.

    I think they’re strong in SP, but not OP. Really interesting dynamic around capturing Holy Cities. And the beard! When do we get to do a best beard elimination thread? Anyway. Looks like fun.

    NFP Civs have all been uniformly amazing.
     
  9. hhhhhh

    hhhhhh Prince

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    1. Relics don't generate culture.

    2. 1.5 districts' (one UD one regular district) cost for 2 culture? No thanks. Even when people are desperate for culture in domination games they don't go that way. That being said they may have a better chance to get Colosseum even on deity so that can be considered as a slight bonus on culture.

    3. If you want to take advantage of the free heavy cavalry to gain your UU, you will have to hold that from finishing, so that means no adjacency.
     
    8housesofelixir likes this.
  10. Pietato

    Pietato Platonic Perfection

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    That is 3 districts, which means they will lag in science.

    Done perfectly, they will crush everything. But getting there might be hard. They are definitely not Scythia/Gran Columbia faceroll.
     
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  11. 8housesofelixir

    8housesofelixir Emperor

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    I personally think that's very similar to Spain. Spain's power spike is in Renaissance, Byzantium's power spike is in Medieval; before that will be a long build-up period.

    While for civs like Hungary, Scythia, and Gran Columbia, their bonuses will kick in almost instantly.
     
  12. Amrunril

    Amrunril Emperor

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    Militarily, they've got +3 combat strength (contingent on founding a religion) and a two good unique units. Religiously they've got small bonuses to GPP and religious combat, plus some religious spread for military victories. Economically, they get an upgraded entertainment complex/building when they build a heavy cavalry*. A synergistic set of abilities, but nothing that sounds unfair to play against or out of line with what other civs get. Now, if they start conquering/converting holy cities, those bonuses scale up, but if they're able to do that they're winning anyway. To me this seems like a great civ if your goal is to win the game fast, but a fairly average one under conditions where winning is, in itself, the challenge.

    *This is the reverse of the way the ability's stated, but probably the better way to think about it.
     
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  13. kb27787

    kb27787 Deity

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    Gran Columbia better by far (the free GG without any investment).

    Any civ that has to build early holy sites is quite bad.
     
  14. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    You're right. In my mind I thought they did because they were a great work. Still I think since you will want to prioritize faith more you might put a usually good Holy Site early where a good campus would usually go. Sure neither culture or science will be there strong suit but between the two I think culture will still be easier to obtain.

    Considering two of their uniques come in Classical Era I think it might start there with the Dromon and the Hippodrome and last through the Medieval. About the same time is when they should have at least founded a religion, if not beforehand.
     
  15. Xandinho

    Xandinho Deity

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    Yeah, even before I play I have the total feeling that this is very OP, especially because of the Hippodrome. Getting a free cavalry unit every time you build a building there is insane.
     
  16. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Deity

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    I vote for "yes".

    Its power is at least comparable to Mongolia or Gran Columbia.

    Free heavy cavalry is insane, but actually the most insane part is that "cavalry get 100% damage against walls".

    This reminds me of the good old days when every domination victory is finished before T150, including those continental ones.

    And this is also combined with another insane, Mongolia-like strength bonus.

    What if you put Mongolia to the very vanilla version? even under that version, you need a ram for cavalries. Rams only have 2 movement, but apostles have 4 movements, and you can select the ignore terrain cost belief.
     
  17. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Elite Quattromaster - Emperor (BTS) Super Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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  18. Sostratus

    Sostratus Deity

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    I was interpreting the question to mean “OP” as in “a really powerful Civ” rather than “game breaking level of power with no counterplay.”
    I might put Gran Colombia in that second category (in the hands of an experienced human player.)

    These guys will be devastating in single player, but in multi you have the option to simply spam AC at them until the Tagma become Shishkebabs. (And use inquisitors to block the religion side.) That isn’t perfect because you are still paying 180 hammers for a pikeman to fight a Tagma they often get for free, but it should give enough wiggle room.
    Contrast with the release version of the Hungarian CS sword rush, or *gestures broadly at Simon bolivar* where there’s nothing you can do but take your beating.
     
  19. criZp

    criZp Emperor

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    Yes OP like every domination civ is. I don't think they need "a lot of culture" like that other guy said, you can get to early medieval reasonably fast without rushing it so there's no need to worry about that, just work on getting some decent cities with entertainment districts ready to complete.
     
  20. Wielki Hegemon

    Wielki Hegemon Emperor

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    I know it will be a little bit boring and might sound puffed up, but sometimes I have a feeling we are overusing some terms.
    Before we call something OP we should establish a definition. Calling over-powered always a) refers to something b) it is marked as bad for the game and considered as a mistake in design. Usually corrected by nerfs or buffs.
    In competitive multiplayer games, the point of reference is always a metagame (established on an average chance to win with a certain fraction) and it is always bounded up with a balance. Calling something OP in those games makes sense and is relatively easy to predict or test. Some fractions are stronger than average and players who want to win ale enforced to chose OP fraction. (the main bad consequence). It is also unarguably a bad and undesirable situation for this kind of game.
    But...
    What is the point of reference in a singleplayer game where difficulty level and the metagame is defined by... chasing with AI? And do the balance is an issue in a single-player games at all? Are we enforced to use some fraction to play, or win the game? So can anything be OP as a consequence?
    I would call them just strong. (Term OP would mean that it should be nerfed)

    As for multiplayer games. Yes, they seem OP :)
     
    DutchJob likes this.

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