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Is Byzantium OP?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Meowzer, Sep 18, 2020.

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Is Byzantium OP?

Poll closed Nov 18, 2020.
  1. Yes

    27.6%
  2. No

    15.0%
  3. Too soon to tell

    57.5%
  1. Lord Lakely

    Lord Lakely Idea Fountain

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    that's a pretty valuable boost yeah, as Byzantium doesn't rly have inherent bonuses towards maintaining a faith economy, meaning they'll have fewer religious units out there.

    Still though, the main way of spreading the religion is by declaring war on a neighbour, wait for their units to attack you and kill them. the boost to religious units is nice but not rly relevant until you've stabilized your religion with tenets that provide reliable amounts of faith.

    and then ofc you can go fully berserk with the Grandmaster's Chaper.
     
  2. hazarius_a

    hazarius_a Chieftain Supporter

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    As written earlier in other threads, I think they're OP because there is not much you can do about their abilities when you're NOT playing them. And OP in my mind is defined exactly by such measures: How can ability 'x' be controlled/neutralized/taken away? For Byzantium I don't see very much, as it is not just one ability. There are different things fitting in so well, that they can decide how they want to win after the medieval or latest industrial era. They're 'mortal' in the very early game as anybody and maybe on water when the dromone is no longer a threat. But this is narrow regarding time and terrain. Maybe the Gaul will be their antidote, who knows? ;-)

    I will play them, just for experience the ridiculous feeling once, but I know the fun will fade away quickly. When you play them, winning is no challenge and when you don't play them, winning is almost no option.
     
  3. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Deity

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    Keep in mind that Spain is an average-strength Civ.

    It is not too weak like Georgia/Canada/Poland/Kongo etc.

    As an average-strength Civ, Spain being overwhelmed thoroughly only indicates Byzantium being too overpowered.

     
  4. pokiehl

    pokiehl Emperor

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    It makes no sense to me how people here compare Byzantium to Spain and conclude Byzantium is OP.

    Byzantium focuses entirely on one single aspect of Spain and - surprise surprise - does it better. It completely ignores the fact that Spain has other bonuses and mechanisms that Byzantium doesn't have.
     
  5. Lord Lakely

    Lord Lakely Idea Fountain

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    Spain is weak as hell lol.
     
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  6. hazarius_a

    hazarius_a Chieftain Supporter

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    I would't call it 'better' in general. The faith/religion aspect comes earlier into play and is much more powerful from the start with byzantium. So it's some sort of 'easy access' version of that ability. With spain you have to work much more to gain similar power. You need suitable terrain as well. Personally I think for long term motivation, the latter (meaning spain) is 'better'.
     
  7. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Deity

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    Also a hidden advantage for Byzantium-- both its UD and UU(Dromon) can be online before the classical era starts, means a lot more chance towards a Golden Classical which makes its faith much more valuable.
     
  8. Aurelesk

    Aurelesk Prince

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    So the increase of power is exponential, not linear! Thank you for the explanation and the confirmation!

    The Byzantine's ability "Taxis" is more close to Montezuma's ability "Gifts for the Tlatoani":
    • The Byzantine need to found their religion to enjoy the initial +3 CS, then they have the choice to either convert or conqueer nearby Holy City to increase their CS.
    • The Aztec need to improve their initial luxury ressources to enjoy the initial +4 CS (4 luxuries per continent), then they have the choice to either trade or settle / conqueer nearby continent to increase their CS.
    • The number of available religions (thus Holy City) and continents (thus luxury ressource) is linked to the map size. Both civilization can reach bigger numbers the bigger the map is.
    I agree, this is not working 100% the same way (you can't trade Holy City), but I think this is closest both in power and execution.
     
  9. Oberinspektor Derrick

    Oberinspektor Derrick Warlord

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    Which sounds great, as the thing I loved with the Aztecs is their amazing snowball potential.
    Yes, I do consider the Aztecs a bit on the OP side of things regarding domination, but it sure hell is fun! :D
     
  10. Siddharth Venkatesh

    Siddharth Venkatesh Warlord

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    Having an OP civ in single player is no big deal really. It's actually better for them to be OP if they are an AI opponent.

    In multiplayer, they will be getting nerfed by the Better Balanced Game mod I'm sure.
     
    8housesofelixir likes this.
  11. UWHabs

    UWHabs Deity

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    Yeah, you can definitely see that over time, the devs have explored new ways to add bonuses to civs, hence why some of the new civs have a more unique setup than older ones. I can virtually guarantee you that a civ like Kupe would have impossible from the start, just because it takes a lot of time and understanding of all the game mechanics to even make them possible, that you can't do that right from day 1. I do think if you were going to go back and redo the vanilla civs, a lot of them would have much more unique setups than they currently have.

    But yeah, I mean, you still have "old" civs like the Aztecs, Scythia, Nubia, Sumeria which are varying levels of "OP", so it's not just "new civ = OP civ". At the very least with Byzantium, they provide a fairly unique play style, or at least require a little effort on your end to maximize their bonuses. I'd much rather that, even if they are the strongest civ out there, rather than someone like Gran Columbia who is just crazy strong but without quite the same personality as a civ.
     
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  12. BarbarianHunter

    BarbarianHunter King

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    You had me excited there for a minute! Then I found they had to follow the same religion. ARGH. May as well be a zone of control :)
     
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  13. Inhalaattori

    Inhalaattori Emperor

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    I strongly disagree. Spain is extremely weak in the early game. They have some decent bonuses later in the game, but IMO these bonuses certainly dont make up their early game weakness. Also their bonuses are quite situational and all over the place. They belong to the same group as the Civs you mentioned. Also for example Mapuche and Eleanor (England) could be added to that list.

    Byzantium and Gaul get lots of bonuses that help them in every game no matter what. All of their abilities are great or at least decent. You really cant say same for Spain. Most of their bonuses are weak and situational and come too late.
     
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  14. Hakan-i Cihan

    Hakan-i Cihan Emperor

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    My impression of Byzantine abilities:
    Ability Description Strength Consistency
    Taxis (Civ UA) +3 Combat and Religious Strength for all units for each Holy City converted to Byzantium's Religion (including Byzantium's own Holy City). Byzantium's Religion is spread to nearby cities when an unit from an enemy civilization or city-state is defeated. +1 Great Prophet point from Holy Sites. Scales with mapsize (number of religions). can be decent to very strong Requires investing in holy sites for founding a religion and conversion of holy cities. Founding a religon shouldn't be a problem. Conversion of other holy cities could be problematic if (most/all of) these are especially far away on another continent.
    Phorphyrogennetos (Leader UA) Heavy and light cavalry units deal full damage when attacking cities following the same Religion as Byzantium. Gain the Tagma unique unit with Divine Right. Strong Doesn't require founding a religion, but it certainly helps. Still requires investment in holy sites and conversion of other players.
    Tagma(Leader UU) Basil II's unique Medieval era unit that replaces the Knight. Land units within 1 tile of the Tagma receive +4 Combat Strength or Religious Strength. Decent Requires iron like normal knights (if not acquired through hippodrome).
    Dromon (Civ UU) Byzantine unique Classical Era unit that replaces the Quadrireme that has additional range and receives +10 Combat Strength against units. Strong Map and start dependent, early access to sea is required.
    Hippodrome A district unique to Byzantium. Replaces the Entertainment Complex district, and provides +3 Amenities, and cheaper to build. When the Hippodrome and buildings in this district are constructed receive a Heavy Cavalry unit. The free unit does not require resources when created or to maintain. Strong

    The Byzantines don't have a real weak unique ability, all are decent or strong. It depends on how consistent they can use their strength. They are at least a strong civ, which could become easily OP with a sea start and close holy cities.
     
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  15. _hero_

    _hero_ King

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    No one seems to have mentioned it yet, but being Suzerain of Fez as Byzantium is going to be quite beneficial.
     
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  16. Ticio

    Ticio Warlord

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    I'm not sure, but I think Fez only works with direct conversion and conversion by pressure do not apply (I could be wrong though).

    I was talking to 2 friends to make a multiplayer game, one of them will use Gauls and the other Byzantium.

    I'm a little affraid of the guy using Byzantium, what would you thin could be a "CounterCiv" to them? I would say Gran colombia (of course...) but we have it forbide.

    I was thinking Spain because of the bonuses +4 CS agaisnt other religions + Inquisitors + defender of the faith But after reading the thread I'm doubting I will be able to stop him with Spain, other suggestions?
     
  17. Siddharth Venkatesh

    Siddharth Venkatesh Warlord

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    It depends. If playing unmodded, you can probably just kill him with Gilgamesh if you spawn close enough. War carts will murder pretty much any neighbor before they get going. Or go Nubia with Pitati Archer rushes.

    Gaul should be a pretty good matchup as well actually. The stacking +2 bonus is insane, especially on defense, and Gaul will have more production and culture to sim city more efficiently. Gaul will be a bit more reliant on terrain but if you play on new world age, they will be very strong.

    Shaka might be a decent counter. Impis are strong and are anti-cav.

    The problem will be that if two of you war, unless one of you just kills the other quickly, the third player will get an insurmountable lead. So I'd just go with one of the original broken war civs and hope to take out one of your neighbors in the Ancient Era.
     
  18. Ticio

    Ticio Warlord

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    That's just what happened the last game, another player attacked me and we both lost against the third one.

    For this game we want to play longer to make sure we see the abilities of the new civs, this is the reason I was thinking for defensive civs (the best is Gaul, but is already taken, Spain to avoid Byzantium turning insane)
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2020
  19. _hero_

    _hero_ King

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    In the Fez Wiki it says "Fez is probably most useful when conducting a religious war - ideally, with Apostles that have the Debater Promotion and other Theological Combat bonuses. This is the best way to convert opposing cities, as it saves you from having to use Spread Religion charges so long as your clergy win the battles."

    https://civilization.fandom.com/wiki/Fez_(Civ6)

    I'm pretty sure pressure from religious combat counts for Fez.
     
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  20. Buktu

    Buktu Warlord

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    Missionaries and apostles add pressure for every charge they use. So I think they work quite similar to combat victories of byzantine units.
     
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