Is Carthage a bit too powerful?

[ExpiredReign]

I intentionally phrased the title that way because I don't think it is over-the-top, rather just a bit too much early on.

Carthage gets Sailing as a free tech, despite it being a tier 2 tech and the Pottery prereq is still to be researched.

Having this tech means they can build the Cothon from the outset. The result of this is twofold.
1) if you have the city-connection happiness policy you can negate the penalty from founding new cities.
2) after building the Cothon you get Tyrian Purple which likewise boosts your happiness and makes growth etc. that much easier.

Add to that the free naval unit at the outset, and exploration is an easy affair. You can then be first to find most of the CSs and start forming partnerships early.

If we remove the Sailing tech as a freebie then it brings it back to a more reasonable civ. IMO.

 

[Thalassicus]

Could you explain your two main points in more detail?

The liberty policy gives 1 national happiness per connected city, which have 4 national anger. The Cothon gives one luxury per coastal city. The first luxury of any type gives 4 happiness, while surplus luxuries provide no inherent benefit. We can trade them to another leader, and both leaders benefit from trades, so surplus luxuries help both ourselves and rivals.

 

[ExpiredReign]

Sailing is "given" to Carthage at the outset which means they can build their UB and get their personal luxury resource almost from the outset.
This luxury needs no improving, and hence can't be pillaged, so it is always a +4 to Carthage.

Building a Harbour is also quicker (because of the free Sailing) for them which means more with that policy with the city connection boost.

 

[jwerano]

Even with the addition of sailing I still feel like Carthage is a decent civilization in the middle. They do not feel overpowered and it would be a shame to take sailing away from them.

Its true there was something genuinely overpowered about playing as Celts if you found 2 natural wonders and combined their UA with the One with Nature pantheon, but aside from that I think we should focus on improving horribly underpowered civs like spain who receives a pathetic faith boost for city conquest and whose unique horse unit dies due to the "unwanted evangelist" promotion, and Morocco.

 

[Hreat]

Carthage gets to basically ignore the happiness mechanic, and also gets a pretty huge economic boost from Cothon + free sailing. I thought they were overpowered when the Cothon was on optics, now it's even better.

In short: free bireme means you get to explore the best settlement locations faster and easier than any other leader (including being able to clear barb camps)

Each coastal city founded costs 1 less happiness (2 once you hit the excploration policy), and also generates free gold (free Harbor seems to be better than Russia's UA all on its own). Buying a Cothon almost pays for itself by turning around and selling the Tyrian Purple to an AI, and since you have a monopoly on it there's no difficulty finding buyers. If you have a sea luxury as well you can actually turn an immediate profit on buying a work boat and cothon then selling the luxury + tyrian, giving any new town a very strong head start on growth and turning a profit in the process. It's like buying a water mill and a granary, only better, and it doesn't cost anything.

If I play Carthage and noone beats me to the God of the Sea pantheon belief, I feel like I already won the game as it is very easy to stack up food, production, and gold at a very strong pace.

The Celts got nerfed because they were powerful in a very narrow circumstance (needing to settle 2 natural wonders), while Carthage is at least as good any time they have access to far more common situations (multiple nearby spots with 2+ sea resources)

 

[Ahriman]

Why don't we start by removing Sailing? I don't see that any civs really need to start with extra techs. [IIRC the huns start with animal husbandry, but they're specifically designed as a rush civ.]

 

[ExpiredReign]

@Hreat

Exactly! Thought I must be the only one seeing this.

 

[jwerano]

The Celts got nerfed because they were powerful in a very narrow circumstance (needing to settle 2 natural wonders), while Carthage is at least as good any time they have access to far more common situations (multiple nearby spots with 2+ sea resources)

Celts and Spain before have always been one of my favorite civs even on Vanilla because I enjoy High Risk high reward and going to great lengths to get the valuable natural wonders. You cant compare the old CEP Celts plus one with nature to Carthage. Celts received a tile with a total yield of 32-40! Carthage is nothing next to that. I'm going to play a carthage game right now to see because I havent played them since Cothon moved but they were not overpowered relative to other civs before.

1/2 the civs in the game can be called overpowered if played with the best strategy for their UA, and we could have a "X civilization is overpowered" thread for most civs in the game. Is Carthage really more overpowered than any of the conquest civs in the game during their era of conquest? You crush everyone on the map with Japan, Denmark, Zulus, Ottomans once their UU comes up, even on Immortal. China can still rush straight to national college with the +200 tech boost. With Great Lighthouse england is invincible with land bombarding Galleons. Up to Immortal Egypt can stack wonders super high and paralyze 2 or more enemies from the beginning of the game by stealing their worker and pillaging their tiles for hundreds of bonus gold with the war chariot before turn 20. I could go on and on and start up a thread for each of these Civs right now.

For me an example of a good but balanced and flavorful civ is Songhai but most civs have an exploitable strategy that makes them overpowered. And despite all this no one is as strong as the Celts used to be if you find 2 natural wonders early for a 70-80 cumulative tile bonus.

 

[mystikx21]

I'd be fine taking sailing away for free. Starting with a free boat and having an excellent harbor UB + unique luxury seems fine.

 

[Hreat]

You cant compare the old CEP Celts plus one with nature to Carthage. Celts received a tile with a total yield of 32-40!

Watch me!

It's pretty easy to look at the free happiness and gold Carthage gets from free Harbors, and equate it to the gold from a Cerro de Potassi or the happiness from a Fountain of Youth (in fact the free harbor is easily worth more GPT than what the Celts were getting from Cerro once you get a few of them), and if you compare the 16-20 yields being added by One With Nature to the 40 hammers God of the Sea gives me when I have 20 fishing boats spread across my empire... I don't see how Celts were more powerful.


I don't see any need for free Sailing or the free Bireme. Did you know that the starting Bireme + Warrior is enough military might to demand tribute from CSes? And that the resulting reputation hit will erode before the CS can even offer you quests, essentially making it meaningless? Instead of 30 gold for meeting a CS, Carthage gets 105, in addition to the exploration and Barb-clearing the Bireme can accomplish.

 

[jwerano]

Watch me!
Instead of 30 gold for meeting a CS, Carthage gets 105, in addition to the exploration and Barb-clearing the Bireme can accomplish.

I've done this in the past but its rare that the circumstances come together just right for it to occur, at least on quick mode. The CSes stop being sufficiently threatened by the trireme when classical comes around and also CSs with hostile personalities are too resistant. Plus some CSs evaluate your strength lower even if they have 0 units of their own. It seemed to work half of the time if you can get your slow moving warrior and a trireme together early enough but then you have to halt your triremes exploration.

As for the bonus from God of the sea this is available to any civ not just Carthage. With rare exception I make all my early cities coastal no matter which Civ I play for the trade benefits so I dont see that great of a difference, and you are just not guaranteed that many sea resources at the ideal position for a city. The +3 production from God of Craftsmen usually works out the same or better overall because it doesnt require you to buy or build a boat, and the bonus is greater in cities with 0-1 sea resources. I've found that if I position my coastal cities to make sure I get fish or whales I may miss out on reaching a luxury or strategic resource thats more useful.

The amazing thing about the Celts was not just the cumulative yield but the guaranteed +4 faith/science/and production per city to so that you typically get 2 great prophets before the AI even gets one, research key techs early, and have multiple cities capable of producing wonders quickly without having to buy a lighthouse or workboats. If Carthage is getting early bonus gold thats good but production and science tend to be more useful. Also sure you can buy Cothons by selling the Tyrian but you have to have a declaration of friendship in the early game which will typically not be available in the first turns of the game, and if you sell your Tyrian at GPT it will take the full 25 turns to get enough gold. Even if Carthage gets such a huge gold bonus when their empire is wide, the Faith,production, and science the Celts got tended to come earlier at turn 15-30 in most games and gave you much stronger momentum.

I just started a Carthage game and I guess the most striking thing about them was the instant +4 happiness so early when i bought a Cothon but I was lucky enough to get gold from a goodie hut to help me buy it around turn 12. I think Carthage will still be fine if you take sailing away and/or move the free trireme to sailing or the building of the first Cothon but I dont feel they are overpowered relative to other Civs as they are. Now that the Celts are nerfed Carthage has the best start. However most Civs have their moment, for example Gandhi being able to get +12 happiness and instant growth in a 4 city empire as soon as Engineering is researched. Carthage's moment comes earlier but as the game progresses I think that most civs are just as powerful or more powerful if you exploit their UU and UA as much as possible.

 

[ExpiredReign]

Interesting discussion fellas.

So it looks like we could safely take Carthage's free tech away and no-one would mind?

 

[Ahriman]

So it looks like we could safely take Carthage's free tech away and no-one would mind?

Yeah. It could be that more is needed later too, but this is fine as a start point.

 

[Thalassicus]

In my current game as Carthage I started near 6 cotton, 1 marble, and have 6 cities. Washington, Elizabeth, and Montezuma are on my continent. Washington and Elizabeth have 2 types of luxuries they can trade with me, while Montezuma has one luxury. I traded my 5 surplus cotton to my neighbors, giving them 20 happiness, and gaining 20 happiness myself. I also traded three of my Tyrian Purple resources to my neighbors. They gain 12 happiness, while I gain 6 gold (21 income - 15 maintenance).

The Cothons give me 4 and 6 /turn. My opponents gain 12 from my Cothons. My opponents get more happiness from my Cothons than I do.

The old Carthaginian bonus was civilians can embark across coastal tiles right away. This makes Optics less desirable, which isn't fun for a naval civ. Starting with sailing is more fun. It lets us build work boats and ships as our first units instead of workers and warriors. This changes Carthaginian early game strategies.

I like bonuses that let us play leaders differently. If we feel Carthage is too powerful, I'd prefer to reduce the effect of other bonuses. We could remove their starting ship, since Sailing lets us build a ship right away. That would delay the citystate bullying strategy Hreat mentioned if we think that strategy is too strong.

 

[Hreat]

I don't think free Sailing really changes Carthage strategy at all, it just gives them a head start.

If Sailing wasn't free, pretty much the first thing Carthage would do is research Sailing. Giving it up for free just means they get a head start on other research, making it more feasible to go after Stonehenge or GL because you already got the essential tech for free.

 

[ExpiredReign]

The way Carthage is set up now is they have an immediate benefit to and .

The free TECH_SAILING gives them the ability to start building the Cothon from turn 0.
As soon as it is built they have a FREE unique luxury in addition to the sea-based resources the Sailing allows them to harvest. With Work-boats being so cheap they can have luxuries to spare within a few turns.

Add to that the free Harbour given them when founding new cities and ALL their cities will be connected long before other civs have a chance to research either to TRADE in the Ancient Era or Compass in the Medieval. It just seems too easy.

The example above with 6 cities only refelcts the state of the game in an ADVANCED stage, 6 cities, who has 6 cities in the early game? By the time I can found my 4th or 5th city there is ample supply of luxuries and trade routes to choose.
My initial post clearly shows that this is an issue that occurs in the EARLY game.

 

[mystikx21]

The CS bullying strategy is much less of an issue relative to the trade connects and instant luxuries that Expired and Hreat outlined. I'd prefer to get rid of both the ship and the free tech and strengthen other benefits if we feel this is too weak. The earlier connections already makes them play differently by shifting to be almost exclusively coastal.

 

[jwerano]

The old Carthaginian bonus was civilians can embark across coastal tiles right away. This makes Optics less desirable, which isn't fun for a naval civ. Starting with sailing is more fun. It lets us build work boats and ships as our first units instead of workers and warriors. This changes Carthaginian early game strategies.

I like bonuses that let us play leaders differently.

I agree. I think maybe people are forgetting how powerful most other civs in the game can be. I played a vikings game yesterday and as soon as I got berserkers I slaughtered 3 civs and one city state on 2 continents. But i cursed Kamehameha for discovering all civs in the world before just before I could wipe france out because another great feature of a Medieval conquest civ is that if you finish your conquest before meeting all other civs you get no diplomatic penalty with the civs you havent met yet.

 

[ExpiredReign]

@jwerano

This difference here with your comparison to the Danes is, you actually have to research and build the units to get their awesome power.
I too love how they can crush opponents easily and in a game just recently I did just that. I didn't however feel like I was handed the game on a platter in the same way I did with Carthage.

Anyway you look at it, they get a massive EARLY boost. I'm all for the mechanics of their unique bonuses, the Cothon, a free Bireme and their UA of moving over mountains and even the Elephants. I am not a fan of it being handed to you without effort.

Imagine some of the other civs with their unique units or buildings either being given straight away or very quickly having such a massive impact on your overall progress. We would rightly question those choices.
None of the UU given at the outset have truly lasting impact.
The UB that are available early still have to be researched and then built and don't have the same sort of impact that the Cothon does. IMO. Happiness in your cities would have to rank at the top or near the top of limiting factors to progress and expansion, the Carthaginians don't have to worry about that.

 

[jwerano]

@jwerano

This difference here with your comparison to the Danes is, you actually have to research and build the units to get their awesome power.
I too love how they can crush opponents easily and in a game just recently I did just that. I didn't however feel like I was handed the game on a platter in the same way I did with Carthage.

Anyway you look at it, they get a massive EARLY boost. I'm all for the mechanics of their unique bonuses, the Cothon, a free Bireme and their UA of moving over mountains and even the Elephants. I am not a fan of it being handed to you without effort.

Imagine some of the other civs with their unique units or buildings either being given straight away or very quickly having such a massive impact on your overall progress. We would rightly question those choices.
None of the UU given at the outset have truly lasting impact.
The UB that are available early still have to be researched and then built and don't have the same sort of impact that the Cothon does. IMO. Happiness in your cities would have to rank at the top or near the top of limiting factors to progress and expansion, the Carthaginians don't have to worry about that.

Ok. I agree with this part of your argument. My main issue is the assertion that Carthage should be nerfed because they are more powerful than other civs and in the big picture I feel they are not. Its not a big deal to move the free bireme to the discovery of sailing. But I feel that the early free ship either at the start or at sailing gives them a unique flavor and is not overpowered so I'd hate to see it removed. If it came down to it I'd prefer the free ship to free harbors in fact but I only play on small maps I can see in a wide enough coastal empire harbors are clearly more valuable.