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Is Civ 6 PC: A continuation.

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Duke William of Normandy, Apr 7, 2021.

  1. Duke William of Normandy

    Duke William of Normandy King of England & Unofficial Welcoming Committee

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    Last edited: Apr 7, 2021
  2. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    Wow, that linked thread is a trip, huh.
     
  3. Duke William of Normandy

    Duke William of Normandy King of England & Unofficial Welcoming Committee

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    Very much. :p
     
  4. AriaLyric

    AriaLyric Nonbinary | Peaceful Builder Vietnam & Māori Main

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    First time in this subforum, no idea what the climate here is like so not sure I'll stay if it's like super contentious here (at least moreso than the original thread already was). But I figure I'll try kicking off this thread by quoting the main points of what I posted, others can do the same, respond to what I said, idk
     
  5. amadeus

    amadeus Civ2 / Law and Order!

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    Greetings, and welcome to OT. First of all, there’s a Civilization 6? What a time to be alive!

    But in all seriousness, I’ve not played the game so is there a Cliff’s Notes version of the controversy?

    Without knowing further, this is all I can say: given that the game is an abstraction, the closer any development team gets to trying to simulate a “real world” is going to run up against controversy. Take a game like SimCity: there’s no discussion of institutional racism in the police, or anti-gay violence, etc. because all denizens are just an abstract. They have no culture, no race, no sexuality; all of that is just in the player’s imagination.

    When more features unique to certain cultures are added, the likelihood that someone will take offense becomes greater. The question development teams need to ask themselves if they want to avoid this problem is: how much adding of “real world” elements adds to the game, and is there a way we can substitute those elements without moving the franchise away from its foundations?
     
  6. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    Well, let me be the first to say: welcome (back?) to Off Topic :D The problem with anything relating to "political correctness" is it's inherently based in ideology as such it's difficult to get value from discussions around it (my opinion of course lol). The Wiki page was helpfully linked in the original thread, but I'll quote the etmyology of the phrase (from Wiki) for convenience, which may be helpful.
    Which demonstrates neatly the problem in discussing any accusation of political correctness, because it's a word weighted in rhetoric from one side / part of the (cultural) political spectrum. It's a phrased design and intended from the (modern) offset to be weaponised that has also bled into slighter wider (mostly online) culture.

    The second is evidence. We (here in OT) recently had a thread on "cancel culture", which is often related to political correctness along the same kind of lines, and there's often a major push for specific examples. It's very easy to say <something> is destroying society, etc. It's harder to demonstrate this. Now, in any real terms, is Civilisation VI going to "destroy society" or even anything close to that? Of course not, it's a video game. It's a good, popular, and inspiring one (I love it), but it's "just" a video game. It's not historically-accurate to a fault; history services the game itself rather than the other way around.

    So, to me, it becomes this merry-go-round of being a mere example in the greater "culture war" (from the Wiki excerpt). The problem isn't Civ 6 particularly, or really anything Civ 6 does. As the original thread demonstrates, the most, uh, vocal pushback is from individuals that believe political correctness as a "thing" is encroaching on society as a whole. And that's a very tricky thing to discuss, for the reasons mentioned earlier in my post.

    That's my summary, enjoy your stay!
     
  7. Duke William of Normandy

    Duke William of Normandy King of England & Unofficial Welcoming Committee

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    Since @AriaLyric decided to quote their own post to summarize their POV of all of this, I decided I would do that as well.

     
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  8. João III

    João III Chieftain

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    Please, allow me to join the fray and post my summary as well
     
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  9. Guynemer

    Guynemer King

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    "Cancel culture" is just "political correctness" rebranded for today, a silly boogeyman that people create when they don't like suffering consequences for their actions.
     
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  10. DogeEnricoDandolo

    DogeEnricoDandolo King

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    @Guynemer Ok, let's say that is the situation, an employee believing in racial superiority and you fired her. Sure, and what did you achieve there? I'll tell you what you achieved, you were able to move a terrible person from one place to another, instead of her being your employee and your responsibility, you just made her, with her same terrible views/opinions, the responsibility of her future employer. Other employees in your company with the same terrible views now learned that instead of voicing their opinions publicly, they will now have to do it with anonymity. Nothing changes, same number of terrible people in the same society when you go home patting yourself on the back for combating racism successfully. Good job.
    When I said "When you are criticized, you get a chance to rethink your decision and make a change accordingly," it means if your "criticism" doesn't get followed up by some level of education, or some chances to let people change, that "criticism" doesn't achieve anything. You can send people to prison for decades, but without proper education when they are inside (which is a huge problem with American correctional facilities), they will end up going right back. Back to the employee situation, are you censoring her by firing her? Yes, even in this case where the censorship is justified, you suppress her and people with similar opinions from speaking up because of possible retaliation, a.k.a. censorship. Obviously, you had to pick a situation where the censorship is completely justified to put yourself in an easy logical and moral high ground, but in many other situations where things are not totally black and white, people do get punished for having an opinion that falls outside the latest political fads.
    Back to the first comment I made that you quoted, I said people were capable of change if there was enough compassion to allow the change to happen, but people won't change easily, or at all, if they are dealing with people like you, whose knee jerk reaction is "certain consequences/punishments must be dished out" instead of how to change bad world views, but apparently what you could only pick out from that initial comment was "CriTIcisM iS noT CenSoRshIP." If focusing on consequences truly works, the correctional system of America must be 5 stars. The same people you silence today without any effort into changing them are the same people going into the voting booth with you tomorrow.
     
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  11. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    Welcome to Off-Topic, we are much cooler than the game forums actually.

    Well, that's an interesting point because I think that you would not agree that someone who was, say, fired for expressing sympathy with Black Lives Matter was just "suffering consequences for their actions" or something similar. I think you would agree that this constituted an egregious imposition into someone's private life on the part of an employer.
     
  12. AriaLyric

    AriaLyric Nonbinary | Peaceful Builder Vietnam & Māori Main

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    Did a bit of digging, and I'm pretty sure the impetus to the creation of the thread starts about here and continues on to the fifth post of the next page. @Duke William of Normandy's post here shows some more background (out of the things mentioned in that post, one is the last comment on this video, one is from a series of now-deleted forum posts by GenyaArikado (not sure if it's bad form to tag them), and one is from this thread). Another notable bit of recent controversy is this thread.
    From what I remember, a lot of discussion centered on things like leader gender ratios (spurred by the last addition to the New Frontier Pass, Joao III, being a man when previous precedent on gender ratios led many to predict a female leader), eurocentrism (again spurred by Portugal's inclusion, as each addition to the pass was drawing a civ/leader from a specific area of the world, and before Portugal was confirmed, we had already gotten a European pack (gaul and byzantium) and hadn't yet gotten a North American one), and a lack of a direct slavery mechanic in-game.
     
  13. Guynemer

    Guynemer King

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    I just do not see this in the same way at all, I'm sorry.

    To me, censorship has a very specific definition--you are not allowed to say X under penalty of law. Anything short of that is not censorship, it is simply social consequences, consequences that we deal with every day.

    If someone is in my house, and they say something I don't like and I ask them to leave, I am not censoring them. They can continue to say whatever they want; they just don't get to do it in my house.

    As for what I picked out of that comment:
    What else am I supposed to get out of it? You are conflating criticism with censorship. Criticism is the equal exercise of free speech. Boycotts are free speech. Disassociation is free speech.


    EDIT: this is @DogeEnricoDandolo, obviouly
     
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  14. Guynemer

    Guynemer King

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    I certainly would not fire someone for such a statement, but neither would I say that they were being censored.
     
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  15. João III

    João III Chieftain

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    If not censored, then maybe ostracized?
     
  16. Gori the Grey

    Gori the Grey The Poster

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    Welcome to CFC:OT all you Civ VIers.
     
  17. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    Well, leave aside the term "censor" for a moment and just tell me whether you think what I described would be an injustice.

    Incidentally, I thought your scenario closing the previous thread was somewhat unclear. It is very unlikely that an employee would be fired simply for "being racist." A more realistic scenario would be a worker fired for creating a hostile working environment for their (say, black) coworkers with constant racist comments or slurs. This, of course, would not be an example of censorship at all!
     
  18. Guynemer

    Guynemer King

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    No, just fired. Fired for a real stupid reason, and I wouldn't patronize whatever business fired that person anymore, but just fired nevertheless.
     
  19. DogeEnricoDandolo

    DogeEnricoDandolo King

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    Well, let them speak! If they don't speak their terrible opinions out loud, we don't have the chance to tell them that they are wrong or should see the world in a different way! There are a lot of videos online about ex-Klans member or people who were brought up in Westboro Baptist Church who got changed, surprisingly enough, not by the people who yelled labels at them but by the people who let them see a different perspective. There are people who are too far-gone that we can't change them, but there are that we can. Maybe I'm too optimistic, but I believe people have a capability to change for the better. Otherwise, they will just recede to their own echo chamber where everyone shares with one another disgusting world views.
    I hope not everyone is like this. You will end up with the same cesspool but just keep moving the turds around.
     
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  20. Guynemer

    Guynemer King

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    Well, the only way I would know this hypothetical employee was racist would be if she said or did something. If she keeps said thoughts entirely to herself, I'd never know.
     

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