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Is Civ 6 up to par with Civ V yet?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by labellavienna, Jun 14, 2017.

  1. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    You can...
    I can trade one of my luxuries for one of theirs.
    I can win a domination and still have allies at the end of it

    There is threads out there that show you what to do

    And I do not do calculus with the dip screen, I just know how to use it now and it's easier to explain to others using the numbers...other games use numbers but hide them.
    I meet Monty on T100 and know he's a luxury greedy barbarian it will take me a while to appease. I make a choice of whether it's worth the effort and act accordingly, I do not use calculus
     
  2. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    So why bother coming on a civ 6 forum if you are a hater?
    Just go and have fun with civ V, you would be much happier.

    Moderator Action: Please do not use the term "hater", it is considered trolling. As is "fanboy" . leif
    Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 18, 2017
  3. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    Answer is simple. Civ 6 is a young one that has room to change and grow. No matter how much someone complains about 4 and 5, they're more or less completed products. 6 is still being developed.

    I mean, there's really no point making it personal. I mean IV's my chosen game, but if you came over and talked about how trash it was, that's fine. (You'd be wrong, but that's another issue.) but I'm willing to admit that that game has some real issues that should have never, ever made it to release so if you hate it because of that then sure, share. I have many posts on IV that are far more critical than the one I just wrote. But there's nothing we can do to change a 10 year old game outside of modding.

    I mean look at 5. I absolutely hated that game at release. They had to overhaul a ton of stuff and it plays very differently. So I look at it now, and say "Hey, it's not my favorite, but there's no doubt on why this has fans". Point is, VI could develop at a much faster rate if issues, either subjective or objective are noted by people. And this isn't usually handled by people sniffing daisies and holding back punches.

    Now, obviously, if you come in here, and be like "Why do people even play Civ, or TBS", then sure such a discussion is pointless because there is no point in discussion. Nothing can please you. You'd be the Montezuma, Alexander, or Trajan of the Internet-- never completely pleased. But I'd like to ask what exactly is a problem with the game being easier to control and display information? It's not an RTS, a FPS, or a MOBA, so testing your accuracy isn't exactly a thing for this kind of game.

    I would suppose.

    It's a far different era from when one bought games, and it was exactly what one got. Nowadays, with social media and other forms of communication, game development is a lot more dynamic and a bit more different now than some crazy person screaming about a subpar game they bought for $5 from a garage sale.

    Now I guess
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2017
  4. DizzKneeLand33

    DizzKneeLand33 Fall from Heaven 2 still rocks

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    The vanilla user interface is a complete joke, I agree. That's why there are Mods out there. I'm certainly not a Firaxis defender, but geesh, we have known the UI has been crap since day one, so at some point get the CQUI mod that has everything you want to have in a UI.

    It's one mouse-click to download on steam Just sayin'. ;) Then download one of the mods that slows down science and culture and you will find the game to be very playable. Yes, I agree, out of the box it's not as good -- better after some of the patches (except the UI), but I'm looking at 6 as a platform for modders to make shine.

    The same was true for 5. Without mods, it's really quite dull after a few thousand hours....

    For the record, the happiness system is one of the dumbest systems ever in 5. I've played more hours of 4 than 5 btw, so in 4 it makes more sense, at least your luxuries have to be connected somehow. Same with 3. The global BS with 5 is just that. At least in 6 if luxuries are sparse I can build Entertainment Districts in larger cities. But just because I don't have one in a size 2 city doesn't make people in my capital unhappy somehow.... and that was the FINISHED product.
     
  5. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    Well, thanks for the mod suggestions. I generally don't deal with mods beyond UI/AI ones but that may be the correct route to take at that point. Though it probaly just annoys me when it is up to the players to "fix" things. It's just one of my pet peeves and certainly not just a Firaxis thing. Sometimes I will come across some flashy website where the only way to navigate is through icons and mouse overs and I just want to slap whoever designed the page. :p It's also why I like forums over stuff like Facebook, because every useful button is usually put nearly together.... and doesn't change every month.

    I would say though. A single player game keeping your attention for a few thousand hours is a achievement in and of itself. Most games don't last a few hundred.

    One thing I've noticed about the global unhappiness thing is that there's also a slight bias against expansion if you want to build, say Circus Maximus, you need a Colosseum in each city. Which is easier if you have less cities. A lot of national wonders are like that which is annoying when you have to buy one of these things in your little resource collecting village. And then these individual buildings cost maintenance. Well, actually everything in V cost loads of maintenance. Civ IV had you build a certain amount of them before you could build a national wonder.
     
  6. historix69

    historix69 Emperor

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    re: Civ 5 National Wonders :
    It wasn't only that you had to have a Colosseum in every city, the cost of Circus Maximus scaled with the number of cities in your empire. I think it was base costs + N * 30 on standard gamespeed. If you started expansion early (wide play), you had no chance to build National Wonders since they were much more expensive than World Wonders of the era.
    So you had few options :
    - Tradition opening with 3-4 cities, build national wonders, then expand or
    - Skip National Wonders and expand early or
    - Fix National Wonders with a small mod and have fun playing Civ 5.

    Civ 5 with mods is a nice game, allthough its performance on Giant Earth map is questionable. Grafics are slow and usually you have to abandon the game when it becomes unstable in midgame. (32 bit problems)
    Imho Civ 5 is still unfinished business. They should make a 3rd expansion, support 64 bit, fix global (un)happiness system, National Wonders, Warmonger Penalties, AI, UI, add some more civs and officially add/support a TSL-Giant Earth Map with 60 well placed and balanced civs.
     
  7. Pythakoreas

    Pythakoreas Chef Tain

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    Was that directed towards me? Well... I really don't hate the game though.... I criticize it a lot for wasting its potential.
    Fact is, I played it again recently despite being really angry and annoyed last year. (late 2016) This game is very different from a lot of other strategy games I've played.
    It has the potential to become a really great game. It just has major flaws, and as of now it falls behind other strategy games on the market, one of them being Civ5 of course.


    You must be a very logical person to take my comments literally... when I said that I can't trade I was exaggerating, I'm a very emotional person, on the other side of the spectrum.
    You apparently figured out the complex Cultural Victory mechanism. You must be very scientific, but.... I was expecting something along the lines of BNW culture/tourism mechanism, which are far more intuitive.
    And when I compared Diplo to Calculus that was another exaggeration. I just want an AI that acts like a human, not a bunch of numbers on the Diplo screen or offering ridiculous trade deals. "There is threads out there that show you what to do" should be unnecessary.
    I'm not even expecting a perfect AI, but they made a step backwards from Civ5 BNW AI. That's what frustrates me.
     
  8. DizzKneeLand33

    DizzKneeLand33 Fall from Heaven 2 still rocks

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    It's also because you are a lot more used to the Civ V diplomacy than the Civ VI. I said the same thing at first, and now I will totally admit I was wrong. At least the agendas and behavior after makes some sense in 6. In 5, it was just abhorrently random throughout. I mean, we eventually figured it out, but do you still remember how bad diplomacy was in the vanilla 5 game??
     
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  9. Pythakoreas

    Pythakoreas Chef Tain

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    What I do remember is having a lot of fun with diplomacy in pre-G&K Civ5, maybe it was because it was my first Civ game.
    Diplomacy in 5 was not random. Every leader had their own personality and acted accordingly unless you checked the "Disable Leader Personalities" in Settings or something along that line (Footnote: customization got worse in 6)
    They were smart enough to lie to you and hide the red modifiers before they launched a surprise attack (Deceptive stance) and they overlooked your war crimes as long as you were their friends and you didn't go too far (BNW). In G&K it was a popular strategy to sell a lux to an AI to afford an early settler. They would accept embassies most of the time. Lux-to-lux trades were the norm as long as you didn't do anything that can get the negative opinion of the world.

    In Civ6 they don't even accept trade delegations unless you just met them this turn. They would hate you by default as soon as you meet them. (-4 for "Unknown reason"... wow) You can only trade with your friends/allies because others who are Unfriendly will offer ridiculous trade deals. To avoid Unfriendly relationship you have to... trade too much in their favour or outright send gifts. (AI doesn't trade like human is what I call broken trade AI) Or unintentionally do something that fills their "agendas". This system looks promising at first but some agendas are ridiculous as pointed out by others. And your efforts in Diplo and trade might get ruined by wars declared on you all of a sudden. AI doesn't covet my lands or has a DoF with my enemy or isn't going for a domination victory but declares war on me. And wants to sign a peace treaty 5 turns later without sending any units. (From what I've read this still happens after patches)

    I haven't tried Europa Universalis yet, but I've had better diplomacy in Total War games, and of course, Civ5.


    EDIT: Wouldn't to Would.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2017
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  10. historix69

    historix69 Emperor

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    Since this thread is visited by Civ 5 and Civ 6 players :
    Would the Civ 6 amenity system fix the Civ 5 (un)happiness problem or would it break anything else?
     
  11. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    It is a better system yes.

    Serious question, is the default option of "small" maps on normal speed considered typical for learning the game? Seems a bit cramped but wondering what recommended settings are.
     
  12. Larsenex

    Larsenex King

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    Threads like this are pretty funny. You are asking if a game that has no expansions and only 2 or 3 patches to fix numerous problems against an established well patched game with 2 major expansions with it.
    I liked Civ 5 but it is a 32 bit game. It sucks, and hits the damn memory wall on very large maps. With Civ 6, hands down I can play a ludicrous sized map and not stutter, crash or have icons disappear. That alone is reason enough to play.
    Game-wise both are about the same with slight differences arriving at end game. Build influence or build an army. Build culture or build a religion. Personally Religion is FAR better in Civ 6 then 5. Warfare is far improved over 5, with 5 having more units to pick from at various ages. People love the UNP but it was really just how much money can I make to buy votes.

    The more fair question is to ask this. Is Civ 6 better (yet) then base game Civ 5? << That would be a fair question. My personal answer is yes.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2017
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  13. salty mud

    salty mud Ey-up

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    Larsenex, why do you believe it's right and fair for a developer to strip features they had placed into a previous game via expansion packs, just to sell you back the same slightly tweaked features in the new game via expansion packs?
     
  14. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    Comparing base Civ V to anything is like not having standards at all.
     
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  15. God of Kings

    God of Kings Ruler of all heads of state

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    Give Civ VI at least a half a decade before we judge.
     
  16. Leyrann

    Leyrann Deity

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    Because expansion packs aren't mandatory. I would also like to mention that, of the civ V expansion elements of faith/religion, world congress, tourism and ideologies (those were the only ones, right?) two are already back in the base game, and I would certainly consider the district system superior to the world congress plus ideologies in how much it adds to the game.
     
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  17. GIDS888

    GIDS888 King

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    Civ VI is as good as Civ V was and we're only a few months into the incarnation.

    I have to admit really not liking the graphics in the beginning - pesky smartphone generation! - and the districts took some getting used to (in England we don't have the concept of "Zoning" so a little cultural difference there we had to get over!)

    But with Civ VI the patches have been fast and relevant - VI is coming up on IV in my opinion, so yeah, play it!
     
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  18. burleigh

    burleigh Chieftain

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    The stats in terms of players would tend to suggest that Civ VI is going down like a lead balloon, suggesting that it's nowhere near CiV in terms of playability.
    In absolute terms, there are currently on average about 14.1k players, compared with 24.6k CiVers. While some have argued that this is down to the fact that there are many more CiV installs, that doesn't explain why the gap between the 2 is widening. The gap was just over 8k players in Feb. It's now nearly 10.5k, despite the Spring patch. Civ VI is losing 6.8% of its players every month, compared with 2.3% for CiV. At this rate of decline, it will fall behind EU IV by November.

    It obviously needs a lot of work. The UI is better, but still poor, with many things being non-intuitive or relying on micromanagement. The AI is also better, but still shockingly poor. This was picked up by fanatics well before release- AI development was appallingly resourced and tested. Given that most players play against the AI, that is probably the single biggest reason for the decline. Whether diplomacy is good or bad is largely irrelevant (& I think it's OK, and have been able to maintain strong friendships throughout the game), as the AI is so poor it can rarely threaten a player (except, annoyingly and occasionally, the Barbs!)

    Other design aspects are debatable- I like the concept of uncoupling the cities, splitting culture/science and limited builder charges, and dislike the limited number of units (knight to tank just feels so wrong!) along with the implementation of strategic and luxury resources and the implementation of religion and espionage. Others have different likes/dislikes- that's fine!

    I'm aware that many people love VI and see it as 'half full' or better. I can see the potential, but 8 months in, it's the first Civ I've played in 25 years that doesn't get me playing that extra turn, or starting a new game as soon as the previous one is finished.The stats suggest many others view it the same way. I've had no inclination to play for over 2 months, even with some very good mods, which for me is exceptional. I'm thinking of trying out CiV Vox Populi to get Civved up again!

    However, as I say, just because loads of people like me are voting with their clicking fingers it doesn't mean others will. Given that the OP has bought the game, it's probably worth while investing a couple of hours seeing for themselves. The game should/will improve with further updates- though it's been 3 months since the last patch, and that- generally regarded as a good one by the community- did nothing to stem the decline of players.
     
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  19. Larsenex

    Larsenex King

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    ^^^ why do you feel you are entitled to all the features for a new game that is clearly the next incarnation of said game?

    Entitlement. Someone feels they are owed something for nothing.

    Its a NEW game with new features. It seems that the game has room to grow but to compare it to civ 5 is not logical nor fair. Come back after 2 expansions and ask this question and you will get a very different answer.
     
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  20. Larsenex

    Larsenex King

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    ^^^ This is interesting. Do you have the 'stats' for where Civ V was at in the same developement Cycle? Civ V did not 'take off' till after the expansions which took it from a mediochre game to a GREAT game.
    Again the idea that we should compare an established game which has had numerous improvements to game play stability (remember the bs we put up with early on?) and mechanics to a game that is still under going the same process.

    Personally, I think Civ VI is the best version so far.
     
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