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Is Civilization forever dead?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by jjkrause84, May 12, 2016.

  1. dexters

    dexters Gods & Emperors Supporter

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    That's unfair. 1UPT against an opponent with a pulse is also a completely different kind of game.
    I'm fairly certain the vast majority of civvers play SP primarily.

    When people criticize SOD, it's exclusively on the SP game against the AI and how the base AI encouraged mechanics of SOD. There hasn't been a good argument in favour of SOD, usually the critique of 1UPT criticizes its faults and downplaying its advantages, perceived or imagined. But rarely does it link back to justify bringing back stacking outside of some who feel attachment to stacks. It's arguing from a negative position, whilst people who like 1UPT will only need to note the SoD and move on to pointing out all the neat tactical things that happens in a map with 1UPT.

    Having been with the franchise hardcore with Civ3, I am unabashedly pro 1UPT and all its variants - limited stacking, combining of units etc.
     
  2. Westwall

    Westwall Emperor

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    I agree. Finally it looks like Civ 6 is bringing back the heart.
     
  3. Pepo

    Pepo Prince

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    Look you can hate CIV IVor CIV V, but in the end both had better graphics than civ VI cartoon ones

    More seriously I don't think that CIV V is rubbish; apart from the horrible release state BNW is a good game. However, in my subjective opinion, I like more CIV IV, I think it is more depth and interesting than CIV V. Moreover I can understand that some people don't like CIV IV and believe that CIV V is better. At the end of the day, firaxis went the logical path: don't change something that's work. Civ VI will get very good sales, and at the end of the day is all that a private company like firaxis care. We aren't going to get a completely radical game changer (like 5vs4) so I don't think that someone who hates civ V is going to get it. Just wait until a Civ changes again the rules of play, or move towards other games

    PS: 1upt sucks and Doomstacks also sucks. Firaxis should really try to do a good combat system for theirs games
     
  4. crazyewok

    crazyewok Warlord

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    1upt was actually one of the things i liked about civ 5.

    Think it should of been more forgiveing with civilian units though.

    Liked the move to hexes too.

    What i didnt like was:
    The way goverment and social policys were enacted.
    The simplified happiness system.
     
  5. crazyewok

    crazyewok Warlord

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    I will reserve judgment until more information is avaliable.

    What concerns me is the 50% cut in tecs.

    Fine ok if a new system is being released equally or more involved like branching tecs.

    But if its cut just to "streamline" ie dumb down i will pass.
     
  6. manu-fan

    manu-fan Emperor

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    I'm playing Civ 5 again and really liking it. I can't wait for Civ 6. I think Civilization is anything but dead.
     
  7. TheMarshmallowBear

    TheMarshmallowBear Benelovent Chieftain of the BearKingdom

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    If they streamlined I highly doubt we'd get "something equal"

    Hell, we wouldn't be getting the "active research" part if it's streamlined.
     
  8. kamex

    kamex Emperor

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    You must be joking right? Civ 6 has better graphics than 5, and much much better graphics than 4. By 'better' I mean overall picture quality.

    Sure its a different art style, but 4 was very bright anyway; without the Blue Marble, grassland looked like telly tubby land
     
  9. Westwall

    Westwall Emperor

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    This. And for people saying Civ is dead, I say good.

    Because what is dead can never die.

    Spoiler :
     
  10. Jon Shafer

    Jon Shafer Civilization 5 Designer

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    All Civs must serve. All Civs must die!

    - Jon
     
  11. noto2

    noto2 Emperor

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    This is ridiculous. Streamlining and "dumbing down" are not the same thing. Streamlining is removing excessive units/features that don't meaningfully add anything. Chess and checkers have roughly the same number of pieces, but chess pieces have more variation, making chess a more complex game. If you took checkers and made the board 10x bigger, and gave each player 3x the number of pieces, you would be making it more complicated, but would it be a fun game?

    Chess isn't more complex than checkers simply because of more pieces/bigger board, it's complexity comes from the variability of the pieces themselves.

    I've played as much Civ4 as anyone else here, and played as much Civ5 as most. This claim that 5 is simplified is ridiculous. The sheer number of decisions the player must make in 5 are easily comparable to 4.

    We gave up (lost complexity)

    -health
    -whipping
    -drafting
    - commerce system (cottage vs farm/mine)
    -vassals

    We added (gained complexity)

    -policies. There is a lot more decision making throughout the game when it comes to building policies than there was in choosing civics in 4.
    -global happiness. Managing expansion is more difficult. There are problems with this system, sure, but it does add a new level of complexity to managing your empire. You could say it substitutes for health.
    - city states, and everything they affect in the game. It's an entire new layer of complexity.
    -religion. Religion in 4 was a joke compared to 5. Religion in civ 5 is light years beyond anything in 4. It's a very rewarding and exciting layer of the game.
    - culture. Culture in BNW is far more complex, what with the whole tourism system and ideologies. Is it perfect? No. But is it "simple" or "dumbed down" compared to 4? Heck no. Culture in 5 is far more complex than 4.




    I'm going to stop there. The argument that 5 is simpler and dumbed down from 4 is laughable. You can call something you don't like "dumb" or "simple", but calling it so does not make it so. Why not just say you prefer one over the other?

    The other major complaint is of balance. Several people have said in this thread that 5 forces you to go 4 city tradition every game. This is simply not the case, first of all. While going 4 city tradition might be the usual route to the EARLIEST spaceship win, it is by no way the only means to win. A win is a win, whether it comes on T270 or T300, whether by space or domination. You absolutely do not need to take Tradition to win the game, even un-modded.

    The other thing I will say about this is that I am a Civ4 veteren and you can't fool me. 4 was nowhere near balanced. Slavery and nonstop whipping all game was the standard way to go. Certain choices and play styles were far superior to others.

    High level play often meant bulbing GP and tech trading to get to cuirs or cavs, and then going on a rampage. Medieval war was a huge chore.

    Mods are developed to address problems in balance. How many of you civ4 vets play unmodded? I mean, really. In single player, who the heck plays un-modded? I spent most of my civ4 time playing with some kind of AI or balance mod.

    Well you can do the same in Civ5. Yes some things should have been more carefully balanced, like going wide. So use mods to add some better balance to the game, such as Acken's mod.

    Civ 5 is not "dumbed down" and "simplified" compared to 4. Keep telling yourself that, though, if it makes you feel better.
     
  12. MIS

    MIS Prince

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    4 city tradition hasn't been a no-brainer since the BNW patch that nerfed it. I'm playing a Liberty science game now.
     
  13. isau

    isau Deity

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    To me this is like saying you won't drive a Ferarri because you don't like the color of the floor mats. The game does not need mods to function. They are there if you want to adjust things, just like a menu setting. And Civ V, no matter how you want to twist it, is not a "broken game." Be serious here.
     
  14. gcm4738

    gcm4738 Senator from Abyssinia

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    Personally I feel these two ideas are at odds a bit, although I see what you mean.

    The greater start variance (and perhaps RNG problems) came from greater asymmetries in terrain bonuses including resources, at least in part. That rush to explore and grab and develop truly superior city locations what was what made Civ 4 for me.

    That's why I'm hopeful that the Beach comments about having to "play the map" in 6 will make the first 100 turns interesting again. Although I doubt they will return to the same level of variance as in Civ 4, maybe there will be the real opportunity to demonstrate creativity - genius even - in those first 100 turns
     
  15. dexters

    dexters Gods & Emperors Supporter

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    Variance in Civ5 is the placement of neighbours and city states. I've had plenty of games on the same civ, same difficulty, same settings go completely sideways or go swimmingly based on entirely on the 'Civ mix'
    Those early wonders I nabbed in one game, I couldn't because my one game didn't have any wonder hog AIs. Or that I had a maritime city state that I befriended in one game but found myself bereft of city-state neighbours in another because Alexander had taken them all instead and declared war early when I tried to befriend one of them. Those setbacks then had cascading effects into the rest of my game, making one game relatively easy, the other relatively hard.

    The tenor and flavour of the early game and trajectory of the entire game is determined by who you have, their unique abilities, each AI's grand strategy, and how you and them interact with those city states.

    Previous Civs was basically grow expand, meet potential enemy 1, meet potential enemy 2, meet potential enemy 3. determine weakest opponent to grab land from or to turn into vassal. etc. etc.

    Sure there are all the terrain based variances in play, but the grand strategic game was rather dull. It's instructive that Civ4 players often miss the geopolitical game when critiquing 5. It's always on the mechanics, which was intentionally minimized (or dumbed down) to make room for interactions elsewhere. As a good designer once said (paraphrasing him), if you add something in a game, gotta take away something else.

    I'm not sure the cottage economy or the flexibility of the civics system will return in 6, I think Ed's focus on terrain based starts is still about locking you in based on your starting terrain, and making that terrain determine how your Civ develops. It's less about min-maxing. He has stated his love for asymmetric play, so you can expect something like the runaway land-based empire having a rather weak navy and not being able to control the seas. Whereas in previous Civ games, runaways basically had full spectrum dominance (by default). I would not expect The kind of terrain based bean counting if it is indeed keeping a significant number of systems from BNW, including city-states.
     
  16. Thormodr

    Thormodr Servant of Civ Supporter

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    Civ almost died but was revived by CPP. God bless the community.

    Civ VI, I am cautiously optimistic about. There are some concerning things but also some promising things. Wait and see. I do like that they seem to be veering away from Civilization 5.
     
  17. Pepo

    Pepo Prince

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    Of course that I was joking, civ VI graphics are better than civ IV ones. However the cartoon style is something I had never like in sagas and bring me bad memories of empire earth 3
     
  18. gcm4738

    gcm4738 Senator from Abyssinia

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    Ah - but that's exactly what kept a lot of us busy sharing screenshots for years! You'd feel like you'd got yourself setup pretty well in 100 turns and then you'd look at someone else who'd managed to "out-max" you by a long way and you couldn't believe they'd done it! It was very social.

    Respect what you say about the differences in V though. It is indeed a different animal. The ultimate would be if they somehow manage to please us all. That would truly be amazing...
     
  19. miaasma

    miaasma Prince

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    despite my disappointed reaction to the early screenshots, i'll almost certainly be picking the game up. these games, in their finished products, have never disappointed me and i'd never reject a game based on some vague early impressions. this one may require a little getting used to but when you think about it they all do, so i'm sure it will turn out great
     
  20. Brian Shanahan

    Brian Shanahan Permanoob

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    Civ 5 went from fundamentally broken on release to a barely ok game where you didn't have to do much to win on final iteration.

    From what we can see of 6, expect the same progression.

    Civ as a series of strategic empire building games is dead.
    Civ as a PC version of facebook games like Farmville is the future.
     

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