Is Donald Trump Done for?

[rah]

That doesn't contradict what I was implying. The US has been arming the Ukrainians prior to Trump. Officially or unofficially does not change that.

 

[metalhead]

That doesn't contradict what I was implying. The US has been arming the Ukrainians prior to Trump. Officially or unofficially does not change that.

No, the US has not been arming the Ukrainians. Some private U.S. arms sales have been permitted in Ukraine prior to 2017, and the U.S. government provided some non-lethal defensive hardware, but that is a totally different thing from the direct military assistance that the Trump administration has provided to Ukraine in the form of lethal hardware. Both in the scope and nature of what has been provided.

 

[rah]

Change in scope does not change the fact that we have been giving them stuff to use against the Russians. If you want to limit yourself to what was officially provided, feel free, but you're pretty naive to do so.

 

[metalhead]

Change in scope does not change the fact that we have been giving them stuff to use against the Russians. If you want to limit yourself to what was officially provided, feel free, but you're pretty naive to do so.

So we have been providing direct lethal military aid prior to 2017, because you said so? Well gee, thanks for clearing that up, I'm sorry for relying on reports from professionals for my information. Next time I'll just ask you.

 

[rah]

Whatever. If you want to keep changing the definition fine. But that is not what I claimed.
The US never provides anything unless it is reported by your professionals. Keep believing that. Pretty Naive.

 

[metalhead]

Whatever. If you want to keep changing the definition fine. But that is not what I claimed.

It might help if you actually made a claim that clarified what it is you believe we have provided, and when.

The US never provides anything unless it is reported by your professionals. Keep believing that. Pretty Naive.

So where are you sourcing your information from? The professionals actually attempt to track shipments, view the actual weapons that are being used in war zones to figure out where supplies come from.

I'd love to know your superior sources of information, and what they're telling you about arms shipments to Ukraine.

 

[rah]

Are you claiming that the US has never offered arms under the table to any government?
If so, you're just an idiot. And there is no reason to discuss it further with you.

I accept your claim about official government policy but not everything is official and if you had stopped there I would have said yeah. But your belief that our government only does things officially is just fantasy material. We supported a regime change there. You think that was all.
And asking for sources about things done under the table kind of defeats the purpose of doing it under the table.
Sometimes they come to light. Like the Iran Contra debacle.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Is that an endorsement of Bush 2's invasion of Iraq? Cant let them brutal dictators stay in power sounds like one of the reasons for the Iraq War, that would make Bush 2 one of the best Presidents we've ever had. Yemen started on Obama's watch during the Arab Spring and he sold weapons to the Saudis too. How is Trump helping Turkey destroy the Kurds? Israel-Palestine is Trump's fault?

I'm not endorsing anyone. The ME is a seething cesspool of hate, money and weapons that has been breeding animosity for many, many years. By removing US troops from the area, Trump will allow the Turks to go to war against the Kurds. The US has supported the Kurds and kept them safe as an entity. The Turks want to take them off the board as a player.

 

[Traitorfish]

Wait, "we started arming the Ukrainians under Trump" is not really compatible with "Trump is a Russian puppet"

It could be. Escalating the war means more opportunity for profiteering and land grabs.

Remember, this is Putin and Trump we're talking about. They will eagerly trade lives for money and power.

Putin must be very confident that Trump will either be re-elected, or that his Democratic successor while uncritically maintain what is, apparently, a self-evident grift. Is it not more plausible that Trump's personal admiration for Putin is simply insufficient to overwhelm decades of institutional commonsense in the American intelligence and diplomatic apparatus?

 

[metalhead]

I'm actually not sure it matters much one way or the other. The Russians probably aren't going to leave Ukraine, and I seriously doubt the next U.S. president is going to escalate this into a shooting match involving NATO and/or U.S. troops.

Meanwhile the Trump administration has taken any excuse it can find to sell more weapons to foreign governments. Maybe defense CEOs stay at his hotel, or gave lots of money to his inaugural fund which he since pocketed. Who knows?

Are you claiming that the US has never offered arms under the table to any government?

No, and I have no idea why you assumed I was.

It's bad logic to say that because we've offered arms in the past off the books, we necessarily did so in this case. You have no basis for saying that. It has nothing to do with naivete, everything to do with a logical fallacy on your part. You simply made up off-the-books arms sales and then used this made-up fact to refute actual facts. Surely you can see how that is problematic.

 

[rah]

Yeah, there is no actual proof, but considering everything else that we've done there, I'll go with the odds. But OK, I'll revise my original statement to it's very likely that we were supporting them prior to Trump. Of course if Obama had been doing it openly, Trump would have had to stop it because, Obama did it.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I'm not endorsing anyone. The ME is a seething cesspool of hate, money and weapons that has been breeding animosity for many, many years.

Yeah. Unless those lower form humans can evolve like we have and put old grudges aside there will never be peace.

9/11 forever! Never forget!!!

 

[Lexicus]

Yeah. Unless those lower form humans can evolve like we have and put old grudges aside there will never be peace.

9/11 forever! Never forget!!!

Remember the Alamo

 

[Takhisis]

Wait, "we started arming the Ukrainians under Trump" is not really compatible with "Trump is a Russian puppet"

Actually Trump can be Putin's witting or unwitting agent while Congress has its own power structures who go along with it because four years of the Donald will mean twenty years of packed courts and meanwhile they'll just get obscenely rich and shaft the poor anyway; Russia itself is far from monolithic. As I posted in the Brexit thread when swatting down innonimatu's strident anti-imperialistic support for the Conservative Party, such apparently contradictory stances are quite common: Putin will work with anyone who can weaken and destabilise rival powers, and it's not as if these arms sales were the equivalent of sending in troops.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Yeah. Unless those lower form humans can evolve like we have and put old grudges aside there will never be peace.

9/11 forever! Never forget!!!

Yeah every year on September 11, I think about the terrible days of the Terror in '92 when those anti Capet thugs stole the French Blue gem (now Hope Diamond) from the Royal Storehouse in Paris.

I think if we were serious about finding peace, the first thing we would do is bulldoze all of Jerusalem, dump the scrapings into the Mediterranean Sea and put up a Wal-Mart.

 

[Takhisis]

I think if we were serious about finding peace, the first thing we would do is bulldoze all of Jerusalem, dump the scrapings into the Mediterranean Sea and put up a Wal-Mart.

Why do you think the Arabs would prefer a Wal-Mart to the Hebrews?

 

[Birdjaguar]

Why do you think the Arabs would prefer a Wal-Mart to the Hebrews?

With luck both would boycott the place.

 

[Takhisis]

You haven't specified whether that would be good or bad luck, Mr. B-J.

 

[innonimatu]

What war? NATO used no ground troops, and the Libyans were engaged in their own civil war at the time.

Those "nonexistent" NATO troops were as "nonexistent" as the american troops recently pulled out of Tripoli.

 

[Birdjaguar]

You haven't specified whether that would be good or bad luck, Mr. B-J.

i think that if Jerusalem was removed from anyone's thinking, it would be a big step to getting along. Step 1 remove it completely. Step 2 make its former location an unattractive place, divorced from ME culture. Keep in mind that I am making these comments as a culturally iconic Notre Dame burns and makes us all sad. So that raises the question: is peace better than having culturally rich places like Jerusalem around? That might depend upon where exactly one lives.