1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

[GS] Is England good now? (Post June 2019 update)

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by acluewithout, Jun 3, 2019.

  1. acluewithout

    acluewithout Warlord

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2017
    Messages:
    2,380
    Is England good now?

    Hilarious FXS have tweaked and reworked England across so many patches. On the one hand, I love they’ve been willing to listen to the fans and keep working to get England “right”. On the other hand, it’s crazy it’s taken so many iterations.

    Anyway, my thoughts on England post June 2019 Update.

    Overall design. England has moved from being a Domination (Land and Sea), Colonial Cities + Trade and Culture Civ, to a Domination (really only Sea), Colonial Cities + Trade, Mid-Game Industrial Power House (more strategic resources, more infrastructure, more hammers, more yields). They were an Empire of Gold and Culture, now they’re an empire of Coal and Iron.

    Civ doesn’t represent history, it represents idealised views of History. Not sure if England is representation is historically accurate, but England being a Colonial and Industrial power house is pretty cool. I’m happy with the design pivot, and frankly I think Sweden and Zulu do Vanilla England’s bonuses better anyway (i.e. Sweden got England’s British Museum, and Zulu basically not England’s free units for capturing Cities).

    Workshop of the World. This is hands-down much just stronger now. I found the +1 Iron and Coal already useful even if it wasn’t game changing. Getting even more of these yields, and being able to store more of it in your RNDs might make this very powerful though. The fact you can also store other Strategic Resources in your RNDs is also big (meaning you can potentially stockpile more Niter for Frigates and RedCoats). England is also maybe now the BEST CIV AT KNIGHT RUSHING. Which is a really weird thing to say.

    The +4 yields for powered buildings is very good given you can double Building Bonuses (although not for IZs). Cheaper IZ buildings just helps everything along.

    The key thing is that not only has WotW been buffed, but also the mechanics that underly much of it – specifically, Tier 3 Buildings (both directly, by making them cheaper and buffing them, and indirectly by slowing the game down and improving production generally). I'm glad FXS didn't just give the buildings flat bonuses - buffing specialists (which is what I think they've done) is way more interesting. Is it enough of a buff? Yeah, maybe. Let's see. I'm pretty hopeful.

    I still think Military Engineers need a buff, and also Railways and Canals, and I expect the IZ, Workshop and (maybe) Factory still need buffs.

    Pax B / Free Ships. Silly free ships are still silly. England still has the whole Free Stuff mechanic, free ships from the RND, free melee units (but not so many now), and more free ships from the Sea Dog. I’m not a huge fan of these free units – I’d rather just a straight production bonus – but I guess FXS feels like free stuff is more unique / distinctive. I can live with it. At least the whole free units thing isn’t completely core to England’s naval strength – there’s also +1 movement and extra great admirals, and just harbours being flat out cheaper.

    The Sea Dog is still a bit of a mess – it doesn’t feel so special getting free units from the Sea Dog when you’re already getting them from your RND, and the Sea Dog doesn’t synergise. It’s not more likely to capture units because of Great Admirals (chance of capture is based purely on relative base CS of Sea Dog, although upgrading to Armadas and Fleets helps) and the captured units don’t benefit from the RNDs +1 Movement. The Sea Dog would make a lot more sense if captured units got +1 movement when upgraded in the RND, and if the Sea Dog was the only source of free units. Oh well.

    Royal Navy Dockyard. It’s still awesome. Most fun Unique District in the whole game.

    Coastal and Colonial Cities. Coastal Cities and Colonial Cities still suck, and this holds back England and a bunch of other Civs. Coastal Cities just aren’t competitive with inland cities (this will be even more noticeable given Quarries, Pastures etc have been buffed), and Colonial Cities just aren’t worth the effort to build and you often have nowhere to build them after the classical era (that’s largely a map script issue).

    You can throw into this that the game doesn’t currently deal with repairing districts post disasters very well, with one result being that Coastal Cities wrecked by disasters just can’t be recovered. We need a mechanic to fix this, like a policy card that makes reconstruction cheaper or the ability to use gold to repair districts.

    These are problems for a bunch of Civs, maybe even all Civs really, but they do hurt England specifically.

    Bugs. England has two bugs which I hope get sorted. First, Naval units lose their +1 RND movement bonus when you upgrade them. Second, haven’t tested it, but it looks like if you conquer a City on a Foreign Continent, you then can’t get +1 Trade Route etc. if you later settle a City on that continent.

    Missed opportunities. Maybe not getting rid of Pax B’s free units. Not having England’s Factories produce extra pollution.

    Overall score. Overall, I think England has gone from being good (Vanilla), to Rubbish just Rubbish (RNF), to OHMYGODWHAT ARE YOU PEOPLE DOING??? (RNF patches), to yeah okay (GS release), to yeah pretty good, I’d happily play that (GS Spring Patch). I categorically think England doesn’t need any more real “buffs”. I can live with the free units. FXS just need to fix the two bugs above, and there are some underlying mechanics that need some love. Otherwise, we really are good to go.

    So. If FXS the two bugs, I’d give England an easy A. Without fixing the bugs, I’d give England a C. If FXS fix the bugs, and also tweak / fix the underlying mechanics that weren’t discussed in the video (i.e. Coastal Cities, Colonial Cities, Disaster Repairs, IZ and IZ buildings, Military Engineers), then England would be A+++, and the overall game would go from a solid A to… to I don’t have words for how excited I’d be.

    [0] We're obviously still waiting for the patch notes, so I might adjust what I've said after I've seen those.

    [1] I'll add a screen cap of England's revised bonuses when I get a chance.

    [3] Yes, I'm an England tragic.
     
    earlc, Kmart_Elvis and Haig like this.
  2. Laurana Kanan

    Laurana Kanan Don’t underestimate who I am.

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2014
    Messages:
    1,727
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Near the Greatest Snow on Earth
    This isn't a bug (as I've mentioned to you a couple times previously). The mechanic works correctly as it is coded. Perhaps it should be changed, but that's a separate argument.
     
  3. acluewithout

    acluewithout Warlord

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2017
    Messages:
    2,380
    Sorry if I haven't seen that before. I thought I read most things but must have missed it.

    I know what you mean. It depends a little bit what one means by a "bug", but I agree it works as coded. I just find it hard to believe the actual mechanic was intended to work this way - as in, I think there's a disconnect between what was coded and what was intended.

    But it's of course quite possible that losing the +1 moeement on upgrade was always the intention and is meant for balance or something, and so it's not a bug even with my "wider" definition. Except, if that's right, then all this limitation does is make this ability just awful. Rushing Frigates, for example, is just counter productive. And this rule or "catch" isn't really made clear in the description.
     
  4. Kwami

    Kwami Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Messages:
    1,215
    I suspect that the +1 movement uses the same underlying code as the bonus that you get from walking next to Matterhorn. In all cases, these minor bonuses disappear on upgrade. I agree that the mechanic should be changed, though.
     
    acluewithout likes this.
  5. Laurana Kanan

    Laurana Kanan Don’t underestimate who I am.

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2014
    Messages:
    1,727
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Near the Greatest Snow on Earth
    Considering that all unit abilities granted this way (xp bonuses, NW bonuses (i.e. Fionn), etc.) and UU abilities, all disappear upon upgrade because the "old" unit is deleted and a "new" unit is created, I believe the mechanic is working as intended. Additionally, the collection type used for this is "COLLECTION_CITY_TRAINED_UNITS", which would negate any upgraded unit.
     
  6. acluewithout

    acluewithout Warlord

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2017
    Messages:
    2,380
    @Laurana Kanan Take your point. But I'm still not convinced the designers really intended it to work this way - ie it wasn't implemented as intended. But I can see I could be wrong about that.

    In any event, it's not fun as it stands and makes the bonus not all that useful.
     
  7. oSiyeza

    oSiyeza Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2013
    Messages:
    41
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Spain
    Im not sure what this means.
    Is there any bug that does not work as coded?

    In software, everything works as coded, even if the code has mistakes. Bugs are the result of a feature working as coded but not as intended, due to the code having errors.

    Am I overthinking this?, I hope this is not being nerd, cause this is pretty clear to me. :mischief:
     
    BenitoChavez likes this.
  8. Kmart_Elvis

    Kmart_Elvis Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2018
    Messages:
    221
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    California
    I also appreciate that FXS is listening to us and improving on England. The new design with WOTW is great and thematic, it's just the underlying game mechanics are weak, but with the new patch they are clearly addressing that.

    I would also like to see

    1) Allow military engineers to auto-update roads to railroads. Currently it's too much of a micromanaging chore.

    2) allow military engineers to repair districts. This would alleviate the damage of natural disasters and get your coastal cities up and running again.

    These are simple changes to the game mechanics but would indirectly be a buff to England.
     
    Abaxial and Brutus2 like this.
  9. acluewithout

    acluewithout Warlord

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2017
    Messages:
    2,380
    @oSiyeza What does "not as intended" or "error" mean? Does it only mean typos? Does it mean two operations (is that the right word?) producing unexpected results? Does it cover something where the game designer meant x to happen, but the way the coder implemented it y happens?

    Well, either way, I'm not going to die in a ditch over whether it's a "bug" or not. If it's a "bug" it's certainly not a bug like the yeild / yield bug was. If @Laurana Kanan says it's not a bug, or that it's working as FXS intended, then okay. Not a big deal.

    My substantive point is that losing the +1 movement on upgrade sucks and is not fun. It's not fun when it happens with +%xp from encampments either. And worse, it's not obvious or intuitive, so it leads to a lot of frustration.
     
    local_hero likes this.
  10. kb27787

    kb27787 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2013
    Messages:
    1,778
    They still suck as long as factories' and powerplants' AOEs don't stack...

    +4 yield is nice, but tier 3 buildings still get the short end of the stick since they do not receive CS buffs (esp. with Kilwa existing). Moreover, neither Vicky or Eleanor have any reliable way of creating +3 adjacency districts needed for the +% to building yield card. I feel it needs to be +6 or +8 for England's bonus to feel like, wow, this is finally their era where I've waited all game for to shine! (And finally, we see some (very, very specialized) use for the +2 power/harbor industrial CS which is otherwise useless).

    Naval warfare... does anyone bother with it? The AI is so bad at using ships (and also do not know how to abuse the +100% naval production cards) that +1 movement is completely useless anyway! Moreover, you can quite easily beeline to Mercantilism and kill everything on water maps with privateers if you are so inclined--no harbor needed at all--just settle some otherwise useless coastal cities to chop them from. If you want to feel like you play on settler and take candy from babies, get a water map and go naval domination in SP.
     
  11. Laurana Kanan

    Laurana Kanan Don’t underestimate who I am.

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2014
    Messages:
    1,727
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Near the Greatest Snow on Earth
    Well, it comes down to whether it is an intended feature or not. All evidence suggests it is intended and is working correctly, hence not a bug. Personally, I've never had an issue with the way these mechanics work and the descriptions all seem fairly obvious to me. How many people actually pay attention to the xp bonuses anyway. I didn't until I started using FearSunn's Unit Flags and even then it was fairly inconsequential. Same goes for the RND movement bonus. I mean if it bothers someone enough it would be fairly easy to make the ability work like the Great Lighthouse and attach it to England as a trait sans RND.
     
  12. BenitoChavez

    BenitoChavez Whispering Walrus

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Messages:
    1,597
    Location:
    Alpha Quadrant
    You're spot on.

    A bug, error, or not working as intended means that the way the game actually works is different from the way that the designers want it to work. If Ed Beach and his team want unit abilities to disappear when a unit is upgraded it's not a bug. Typos, complex code that produces unintended consequences, game crashes, the coder not understanding what the designers intend, etc. can all be filed under bugs.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2019
    acluewithout likes this.
  13. acluewithout

    acluewithout Warlord

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2017
    Messages:
    2,380
    @Laurana Kanan I'm not wanting to be argumentative, but I don't get how it's "obvious" from the description? Indeed, I'd long assumed the bonus was retained on upgrade. It took me ages to realise it wasn't carrying over. It certainly wasn't obvious to me.

    The bonus is stated as applying to units "built" in the city with a RnD. If I build a unit, then upgrade it, how was the unit not "built" in the city? Where else was it "built"?

    The mechanic also isn't consistent with promotions, which do carry across upgrades. It's also not consistent with Corps and Armies. If I upgrade a Corp, it stays a Corp.

    At best, I think the in game description is ambiguous. And in any event, I don't think the mechanic works they way people would expect it would, particularly when they see promotions carrying over between upgrades.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2019
    local_hero and oSiyeza like this.
  14. oSiyeza

    oSiyeza Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2013
    Messages:
    41
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Spain

    Oh, sorry, i was just trying to understand what the post intended to say. I apologize in advance if sounded a bit rude. if I am being totally friendly here :).
    "Does it cover something where the game designer meant x to happen, but the way the coder implemented it y happens?" Of course, you see typos are the less dangerous bugs there are. They are the most easy to detect and correct. What it does usually happen when adding a feature to a complex software is that usually you don't have in your mind all features that are currently in place and is very easy to miss some interaction with a previous piece of code. It is a mistake that my students in college usually make, and also happens to me all the time.

    I agree it is pretty minor, but it also seems kind of obvious that the bonus should not be lost. Since there is no reason for it I can think about. I think the game will benefit for taking that into account.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2019
    acluewithout likes this.
  15. King of Prussia

    King of Prussia Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2011
    Messages:
    190
    I will agree that the loss of minor bonuses is annoying and un-intuitive. Not to mention it is annoying to keep walking your troops back over just to get the bonus again. Things like the movement bonus should be kept after upgrade.

    While it is minor, i would of hoped it would of been fixed by now after all these years.
     
    acluewithout likes this.
  16. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2005
    Messages:
    4,375
    Gender:
    Male
    They are better than Georgia. Maybe even as good as Norway.

    I mean technically speaking some civ always has to the worst but it doesn't mean they have to be bad.

    Most naval civs still suffer from coastal cities being rubbish early on though.
     
  17. Laurana Kanan

    Laurana Kanan Don’t underestimate who I am.

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2014
    Messages:
    1,727
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Near the Greatest Snow on Earth
    So for all that time you didn't realize it were you frustrated and not having fun? Or was it only after you realized it that it became a problem? In any event, I qualified my statement as being obvious to me "personally". Again, to me, if I build a frigate through the production queue then I've "built" it. But, if I upgrade it to a battleship then I didn't really "build" it I upgraded to it. Or rather, I deleted the frigate unit and then created a new battleship unit. The upgrade can happen anywhere in friendly territory so the game would have to know "where" the unit was originally built and then carry that ability over, but it's just not set up that way. These abilities are attached to the units via Districts, Buildings, NWs, etc.
    These are all different things, and the way they are each coded is different. For example, promotions are tied directly to a unit via their UnitPromotionClasses, not indirectly through something else like a District. So since a Frigate & Battleship are the same promotion class they carry over upon upgrade.
    Here I agree. FXS descriptions can be ambiguous sometimes so it certainly wouldn't hurt to specify more directly that these abilities do not carry over upon upgrade. However, it makes sense to me that they do not. How many posts have there been in 2 1/2 years where its been stated that it's better to build a few units at the start and then upgrade them over the course of the game without hardly ever building any more from scratch? Why is that? Because it's so much cheaper and more efficient to upgrade with gold then to build from scratch with cogs. I think if you want the extra xp or movement or whatever, then you should have to invest in production to get it. If those abilities carried over with an upgrade then it just skews the game towards one of only upgrading never building.

    Of course, having said all this, FXS may completely change how this works in a future patch and my thoughts will be moot.
     
    cvb likes this.
  18. acluewithout

    acluewithout Warlord

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2017
    Messages:
    2,380
    @Laurana Kanan Thanks for explaining your thoughts. I don’t really agree with the distinction you’re making between retaining promotions and retaining bonuses, or a few other points you’ve made, but I think we’ve both set out our thoughts on this fairly clearly. We’ll just have to a agree to disagree.
     
  19. cvb

    cvb Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2017
    Messages:
    261
    From my point of view the problem is that the Human player is far too efficient in accumulating advantages. So he has most of the combats highly experienced, highly promoted & fully upgraded heros against the AIplayers newbies. The killing / being killed ratio is often ridiculous - more butchering than fighting, isn't it?

    So I like the current implementation, which gives (seldom enough) the ability to lose boni indeed; holes in the units upgrade tree, so that not every unit type receive an upgrade in every era ...
    ... and I work on a "demobilisation mechanism" for the Human player to avoid that 'highly experienced, highly promoted & fully upgraded' - syndrome. :)

    Sometimes less is more.

    .
     
  20. UWHabs

    UWHabs Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2008
    Messages:
    3,931
    Location:
    Toronto
    I'm just kind of surprised that they keep tweaking and changing England. I'm pretty sure they've been touched one way or another in virtually every patch since the original version came out.
     

Share This Page