Is God Good?

[Traitorfish]

Earlier today, there was a brief exchange about whether the Judeo-Christian God can be considered "good", and By coincidence I had recently stumbled across the film God on Trial, which depicts a group of Jewish concentration-camp prisoners putting God on trial in absentia on a charge of having broken his covenant with the Jewish people. As you might except, the film addresses a lot of similar themes. So, I thought it would be interesting if we discussed whether God, in the specific sense of the God of Israel as described in the Old Testament, can be considered a "good" entity.

To avoid polemic, I'd like to use this extract from the film as a sort of "opening remarks":


Link to video.

[Seriously, watch the video or don't bother posting. Atheists as well as Christians.]

Setting aside the particular details concerning Jews and the covenant and so forth, what sort of reactions do you have to the criticisms of a benevolent conception of God as presented in the extract? Do you think that the summary "God was never good, he was only on our side" is accurate? Are there some crucial details or perspective which you think are missed? Is there some third response which I haven't the imagination to think of?

 

[innonimatu]

...the God of Israel as described in the Old Testament...

Do you think that the summary "God was never good, he was only on our side" is accurate?

Did someone ever think otherwise? After reading the Old Testament? It's a catalog of horrors supposedly committed by that god, constantly mingled with threats and orders to its fearful human servants. I can't understand how the religious jews tolerate the damn thing (well, I can, looks like a misguided attachment to it as a symbol of identity), or how some christians insist on taking it seriously.

 

[Monsterzuma]

Maltheism FTW

Spoiler :

 

[Terxpahseyton]

Having faced such obvious flaws for a long time, Religion invented a bullet-proof solution. It is all just a mature of interpretation. If everything forsakes, just remember that there is a good reason by definition. You just don't get it. Because it is divine and all. Talk about the merits of doctrines.

 

[de Maistre]

If it's an article of their faith that God is both benevolent and behaved cruelly, I don't think you can really ignore one in favour of the other. If the two can't be reconciled then that version of God can't exist, but that doesn't change who God is (an omnibenevolent dude who did some pretty foul stuff).

 

[Gogf]

Did someone ever think otherwise? After reading the Old Testament? It's a catalog of horrors supposedly committed by that god, constantly mingled with threats and orders to its fearful human servants. I can't understand how the religious jews tolerate the damn thing (well, I can, looks like a misguided attachment to it as a symbol of identity), or how some christians insist on taking it seriously.

From what standard do you derive the meaning of "good"?

 

[kramerfan86]

I suppose it depends on whether you put more stock in the old testament or the new.

 

[Yui108]

From what standard do you derive the meaning of "good"?

I'd think we'd say, if we're going by the framework the Old Testament gives us in our search for an objective good, that what God gave the Jews was "good" Land, peace, shelter, food. Thus his denial of these things to other peoples is bad, isn't it?

 

[Gogf]

I'd think we'd say, if we're going by the framework the Old Testament gives us in our search for an objective good, that what God gave the Jews was "good" Land, peace, shelter, food. Thus his denial of these things to other peoples is bad, isn't it?

I'm not really sure how that follows.

 

[Tee Kay]

God is beyond the concept of good and evil.

 

[Gogf]

I suppose it depends on whether you put more stock in the old testament or the new.

No it doesn't. God is not a man, and the laws that govern man are not supposed to govern him.

 

[Old Hippy]

Says the book writen by man...
and if we are created in his image are not mans laws a reflection of gods laws...
personelly i think we created god in our own image ... that goes along way to understanding why his laws are so stuffed up...

 

[kramerfan86]

No it doesn't. God is not a man, and the laws that govern man are not supposed to govern him.

We arent talking about laws or whether he has the right to do something. The argument is he good or is he bad and people's opinion on the matter.

 

[Agent327]

God is beyond such human categories as good and evil.

 

[Agent327]

Setting aside the particular details concerning Jews and the covenant and so forth, what sort of reactions do you have to the criticisms of a benevolent conception of God as presented in the extract? Do you think that the summary "God was never good, he was only on our side" is accurate? Are there some crucial details or perspective which you think are missed? Is there some third response which I haven't the imagination to think of?

The God of the Tanakh is not one of the benevolent category; in His own Word: `I am a jealous God´. He is also a wrathful God, prone to fits of anger.

On another note, there´s no such thing as a Jewish ´people´: first, what defines being Jewish is adherence to the rites performed (discussed at length in the Tanakh), second, conversions were as much a part of Jewish tradition as it is of Christendom.° That is why the world in Judaism is divided in Jew and gentile (non-believer). The idea of a Jewish ´people´ wasn´t coined until the 19th century, in the wake of emerging European nationalisms, and is closely linked to the development of Zionism.

°A (comparatively late) example of conversion to Judaism is that of the Khazars; they were not ´Jewish people´, but they were Jews. Earlier examples include Jewish communities all around the Mediterranean, in Yemen, Ethiopia, and even India. (The opposite ofcourse also occurred: with the advent of Islam the population of Israel/Palestine mass converted to that religion.)

 

[Traitorfish]

God is beyond the concept of good and evil.

That would not seem to render the claim that "God is not good" invalid, though, it would merely suggest that the inverse, "God is evil", does not apply.

The God of the Tanakh is not one of the benevolent category; in His own Word: `I am a jealous God´. He is also a wrathful God, prone to fits of anger.

So you would similarly agree that the God of Israel can be accurately described as "not good"?

 

[Gogf]

We arent talking about laws or whether he has the right to do something. The argument is he good or is he bad and people's opinion on the matter.

If morality does mot apply to God, what does it mean for God to be "good"?

 

[Agent327]

The concept of a ´good´ God hadn´t been developed yet when these books were written.° In general, gods had fairly limited functions in ancient times; so if you are looking at a Supreme God (such as the one in the Tanakh), it´s hardly surprising He combines all of the functions of ´regular´ gods. In all fairness, however, the theological development of the God concept didn´t stop with the Tanakh; Judaic tradition has continued since. (In fact, what constitutes Judaism wasn´t properly formulated until around the time of Jesus or sometime after.) The Tanakh presents just the first stages - plural, since the books therein weren´t all written down in the same period - of the development of what we nowadays call Judaism.

° A notable exception is Ahura Mazda, the God of Light of Zoroastrism. It is possible that Zoroastrism, which is a dualist religion, influenced the development of Judaism.

 

[Leoreth]

If morality does mot apply to God, what does it mean for God to be "good"?

Why does morality not apply to God? You've just asserted this.

Moreover, how can God be the source of morals if they're alien to him?

 

[Gogf]

Why does morality not apply to God? You've just asserted this.

Moreover, how can God be the source of morals if they're alien to him?

I don't know why people would think that morality does apply to God. Morality is a category that governs the actions of man. Why should we think that morality applies to God any more than it does to chairs, or the wind, or fish?

In Christianity, morality is about communion with God. Evil is about separation from God. Morality is not alien to him, but it doesn't apply to him in the same way that it applies to us.