Is Guerrilla III underrated?

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Prince
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Nov 20, 2008
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I hear people often talk about "Boudica of Rome" (using unrestricted leaders) as being an "overpowered" combo.

Uhhh...what about plain ol' Boudica of Celtia??? How is that any worse? You've got a UU that gets two free promos, that requires only copper or iron rather than iron, that still gets the +10% city attack bonus, and which is only 4 exp from getting guerrilla III (only 1 exp with a barracks, or immediately there with simply 1 military instructor or 1 xp civic).

I think the reason why Boudica of Celtia gets less lovin' is that people underrate the utility of the guerrilla promo line--especially guerrilla III, which is really where it's at.

Guerrilla III (+25% attack vs. hills and 50% withdrawal chance, in addition to the double movement in hills and +50% defense of GI and GII) means you always have better than even odds of surviving when attacking. ALWAYS. If you were going to have a 0.2% odds of surviving beforehand, now you'll have a 50.1% odds of surviving. 40% --> 70%. 60% --> 80%. 80% --> 90%. And you're going to have better odds on top of that when dealing with those really tough hilled cities, which is really where you're gonna need the help.

With guerrilla III, much like with the drill line, you can really rack up the xp thanks to the fact that you can afford to risk your troops in riskier battles. If they don't win, but retreat, you'll get 1 xp, and if they win you'll get a whole lot more than normally. All you need to make sure of is that you don't lose.

Getting to rifles early as Brennus or Boudica can be just devastating. Although it's a pity that the dun obsoletes just as it could become a real terror of an asset to have, but you can still upgrade guerrilla III bows, Gallic Warriors, or muskets to guerrilla III rifles, which then become basically like cavalry that have flanking II, and that move 2 tiles in most instances, but which can fortify, and which can get an insane defensive bonus on hills as opposed to none at all, and which can't be easily countered by fortified formation pikemen (and are countered not as strongly by opposing riflemen as well, in case you are fighting an opponent with the same era of units). Almost like a 2nd UU.

Just as people often use a no-siege spy-assisted renaissance rush when they are able to get to curiassiers and cavs early, the same can be done with guerrilla III riflemen to even greater effect (in my last game as hannibal I had 3 military instructors in my heroic epic city, plus a barracks, so I was turning out instant guerrilla III riflemen. It can be done even without playing as the Celts). Imagine swarms of guerrilla III riflemen rushing in along your hills, pillaging your strategic resources with impunity, almost impossible to dislodge (even guerrilla II is good enough for this), and then the ones with guerrilla III moving in for the kill...almost like a renaissance-period impi rush, in my opinion. The trick would be to bring overwhelming numbers quickly, and only attack with your guerrilla III's while your guerrilla II's provide stack protection for the weakened guerrilla III's that retreat from battle. This strategy is obviously map-dependent, but God help the opponent who has cities next to hills....

The only odd thing about guerrilla III that I've noticed is that the retreat percentage seems to not come into effect when attacking from ships, so giving it to marines doesn't seem quite as useful if you are going to be using them in amphibious naval assaults. But otherwise, if I can produce gunpowder units with 3 promotions out of the gate, a good number of them are likely to be promoted up the guerrilla line. And remember: unlike forests, hills can never be chopped down. The guerrilla promotions retain their tactical usefulness for the whole game.

Also, I love attaching a warlord to a guerrilla III unit and giving it tactics as well. 80% withdrawal means I will have to be VERY unlucky to lose this dude to the RNG. Slap on leadership and some drill promotions as well, and that unit starts earning xp very quickly at very safe odds.
 
Guerilla III has its uses, in my opinion. Basically, it allows Celts to conquer without siege, but still even a GIII Gallic is definitely not equal to Praetorian.
 
G3 Galic's under Boudica are strong. It's not her warfare ability that doesn't add up to Rome, it's just her overall ability. I find when playing her I can easily win early wars, but my economy gets into trouble quickly. Julius Ceasar is organized, which makes an enormous difference when you expand into a big empire. In fact, if you're big enough, ORG is just as profitable as FIN. Also, the Romans have the forum for quicker GPs. Augustus can build wonders to help with the economy. I'm wondering how you could build a strong economy with Boudica. She is CHA, for some bigger early cities, and she does start with mysticism. It's possible to found religions with her and build shrines, and I have done so, but when you spend time doing that it's quite difficult to then go on the rampage. Thoughts?
 
in fact, boud's economy is supported nicely by rape and rampage. offensive wars can be very profitable, both tech- and gold-wise.
there was a MS IV Boudica game not long ago, and it's participants had a chance to greatly appreciate "rampage economy". (well, i definitely had this chance :) )
 
Yup, Guerrilla line is very underrated..... and you don't need Boudi to show it. If you are willing to dig old warlords threads in here, check ABigCivFan game with Brennus for a good example of a good use of the Guerrilla line
 
as for me, i'm a bit confused of what do you mean saying "underrated".
Of course, it's nice to promote those units who start with GI along the guerilla line, or maybe occasionally promote a warlord-led-city-raider-super unit to GIII to get those withdrawal bonus.

But if you are not celts, GIII use is extremely limited - only if you have no siege/flanking, but have tons of highly experienced units, and still badly need to wear down tough defenders by hit-and-run attacks. I suppose it's highly unprobable.
So, GIII has its applications (mainly celtic ones) but is certainly not generally "powerful".
 
Celts are one who are fun to spam Generals with. An 80% withdraw chance on any unit makes for a fun time. With those odds, I've attacked with less than 1.0 and have still survived battles and nabbed xp. Since half the promos needed to reach that 80% chance are free, it makes grabbing them worth it especially when it comes time to upgrade your army to maces and later rifles. Toss in a super medic and get your generals March and even "lost" battles where they withdraw will be met with swift recovery.
 
i'm afraid it's a bit too risky to fight generals at 80% survive odds - they are so much valuale...
 
G3 Galic's under Boudica are strong. It's not her warfare ability that doesn't add up to Rome, it's just her overall ability. I find when playing her I can easily win early wars, but my economy gets into trouble quickly. Julius Ceasar is organized, which makes an enormous difference when you expand into a big empire. In fact, if you're big enough, ORG is just as profitable as FIN. Also, the Romans have the forum for quicker GPs. Augustus can build wonders to help with the economy. I'm wondering how you could build a strong economy with Boudica. She is CHA, for some bigger early cities, and she does start with mysticism. It's possible to found religions with her and build shrines, and I have done so, but when you spend time doing that it's quite difficult to then go on the rampage. Thoughts?

Hmmm...one option would be to wait until you have a secure economy before conquering a bunch of cities. Grab an AI capital or a strategic spot, by all means, but hold off on taking a bunch of cities until a bit later. In the meantime, you can use your insta-guerrilla II archers and Gallic Warriors to worker steal, pillage, and stagnate a neighbor in preparation for taking them out once you get courthouses and siege.

Also, religion is still very viable even when going the warfare route. All you need is an early religion (very doable) and stonehenge for popping a great priest early (also very doable). After that, and after a few initial cities and workers, switch to barracks, dun, and units. Even if you don't actively spread the religion around with missionaries, natural spread will probably get your early religion to at least 10-15 cities (if you can get just one early missionary to your neighbors and infect their cities before they get another religion, then they will spread it around for you and you've got it made. Very little investment required oftentimes for the early religious approach, really). That's enough to support 4-5 extra cities by conquest.

As for G3 when not playing the Celts...let's remember that for units where this would be relevant, those units can't get city raider promotions anyways (if that were the case, then G3 would probably lose out to city raider promotions in most cases). So let's say you are producing riflemen with 3 promotions out of the gate. If you are going to use them as stack defenders, G3 is solid in most situations (combat 3, or combat 2 + pinch might be alternatives. Maybe mix half and half to give you the best stack defense in any situation (on a hill or out in the open). If you are protective, G2 + CG1 + D1 + pinch would make for VERY good stack defenders). If you are going to use them to do a spy-assisted rush, G3 is where it's at. And if you are going to use them as city attackers, G3 is a viable alternative to combat 3 or combat 2 + pinch, especially for cities on hills, which is where you will really need the help. (Having the 25% bonus from pinch when taking wounded troops in non-hill cities is somewhat superfluous, and you don't get the retreat bonus for the hilled cities that become the real deciding factor in one's campaigns).
 
Good point, I like Boudica as a leader, but I don't use that line of promos. I could try it : x and will post back.
 
Guerilla 3 is pretty bad unless you're playing a map which by design has a tremendous amount of hills. Although it has an advantage over promos like woodsman in that it will essentially hold up throughout all eras, it is much harder to leverage in a meaningful way. By contrast, something like woodsman 2/3 or shock is only going to matter in 1 or 2 eras but will be much more powerful in that era which is why people favor those promos.
 
we are really talking that the Celtic UU is underrated rather than Guerilla III promotion! I agree it is.

Guerilla III is a great bonus IF you could get it with melee units, which you can't (exception, the Celtic UU). Frankly Guerilla III longbows or crossbows do not thrill me much, and come gunpowder there are alot of other options.

Personally I prefer the standard CR promotion line and bring along excess flanking II mounted units.
 
G3 would be more powerful if it was +50% hill attack, since that would then be enough to counter your typical archer/longbowman hill defense. 50% withdrawal is good, and in some situations, is just what you need to avoid losing like 4 trebs attacking a hill city.

As Boudica, getting a CR3/G3 Gallic Warrior would be a fearsome unit. But I just can't think of another case where I really would want G3. Maybe for an occasional crossbow (it'd be great on a cho-ko-nu, actually), but otherwise, I can't see a time that I really would want it.
 
I tried a couple times with the Celts, but I couldn't really see any viable strategy with G3 units that wouldn't have been just as effective with combination of lower promoted units of various types.

To be completely fair, the best use I got out of them was at Prince level, where I pulled off a Oracle -> Feudalism move, and then went on the offensive with Guerrilla longbows. It was fun, if not particularly effective. None of my armies ever got counter-attacked, and they were outstanding pillagers. I still needed to bring along some of the Celtic swordsmen, but I gave them City Raider promotions.
 
It's great on Cho-Ko-Nus, greatly lowering attrition rates for cities that would otherwise be tough nuts to crack. Still, xp requirementmens are a little steep...
 
It's definitely useful for the Celts, but it doesn't quite make the Gallic Warrior better than a Praetorian. +25% hills attack, +30% hills defense (on top of 20% from the free one), double movement in hills, and 50% withdrawal is great for 2 promotions. Its usual use against cities is more comparable to horse archers than catapults, except horse archers get to 50% withdrawal from flanking 2 and base withdrawal.

There does come another time in a non-celt game when I've needed guerilla 3. When I have gunpowder but not military tradition or steel. Guerrilla 3 musketmen often have a much better survival rate versus cities on a hill than trebuchets. And knights aren't very good at withdrawing so there's no horsearcher-like unit available besides the musket.
 
For two promos GIII is good, for three promos it is a bit weak.

Outside of the celts the biggest use I have for it is doing the amphib assault with GIII marines. GIIIs wear down the defenders, CII/Pinch or CI/Pinch/Formation do the honours, CG MGs or Infantry eat the AI stack. Works very well with the normal Cha suspects.

Really though, I a bigger fan of pults, trebs, cannons, air power, and nukes as they seem to offer better damage per :hammers: when I can use them. CRIII siege is normally vastly superior to GIII anything else.
 
For two promos GIII is good, for three promos it is a bit weak.

Outside of the celts the biggest use I have for it is doing the amphib assault with GIII marines. GIIIs wear down the defenders, CII/Pinch or CI/Pinch/Formation do the honours, CG MGs or Infantry eat the AI stack. Works very well with the normal Cha suspects.

Really though, I a bigger fan of pults, trebs, cannons, air power, and nukes as they seem to offer better damage per :hammers: when I can use them. CRIII siege is normally vastly superior to GIII anything else.

Pretty sure there's no withdrawal from amphibious assaults, i.e. from a ship in the ocean, as of 3.17...

Otherwise I agree, except in the case I mentioned above.
 
I see two big issues with Guerrilla3 for non-celtic units. The first is similar to the Drill line in that the two previous promotions to get to G3 are too situational. The second shortcoming is once siege is available the need for a super nut cracker unit is greatly diminished. Why risk a 10exp unit when some rookie cat/treb straight from the barracks can do the same thing?
Other than Gallic Swordsmen there are only 2 other times I might consider this option. One is with DeGaulle or Napolean and musketeers. Using G3 musketeers to weaken the top defenders and then following up with knights to take out the rest of the defenders. This means not waiting for slow siege units. Curassiers make better companions for musketeers, especially combined with spies but require a deep path into the top of the tech tree as well which shortens the time you have to leverage the French UU. DeGaulle can take a shot at the oracle for MC while Napolean can REX a bit more for more research and production cities. Having two GG's helps considerably. One as a settled instructor to get you to level4 with a barracks and both xp civics and the other for a super medic.
The 2nd situation would be with Sitting Bull and a Longbow rush. If you can nab Fuedalism with the oracle and built stonehenge for the free totem poles you can use the GP to bulb theology. You can then produce G3 Longbows right out of the box. The 50% retreat odds mean fewer losses to top defenders and Drill2Covershock longbows will deal with anything leftover. I still prefer cats in this situation. Construction can be researched while building longbows. Maybe a combination of cats to drop defenses and G3 longbows for attacking the top defenders. Getting fuedalism from the oracle could be a challenge on higher difficulties.
 
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