Is Honor ever a good idea?

CivilizedPlayer

Warlord
Joined
Jan 26, 2012
Messages
222
I just started up a game as Shaka, going for a Domination victory (surprise). Considering my plan is basically to go to constant war for the entire game, it seems like this is pretty much the ideal time to use Honor. But I'm wondering if, even under ideal circumstances, Honor is ever really a better starter choice than Tradition or Liberty. Of course there's always the option of getting to Honor later, but I'm just talking about right out of the gate, is it ever the best choice? And if so, how do you generally go about filling it out?
 
I always go for the tradition opener first and when I feel like going honor i only go with the opener and dicipline all others I find useless except maybe military caste in combination with oliarchy
 
I can't think of a single instance where Honor is the best first tree.
It might be okay as a second tree after you have gotten Tradition if you are planning enough war mongling though. But I also note that the tree was actually nerfed with BNW despite already having been the worst first starting tree.

If after the achievement for completing Honor, I'd disable BNW and then pick Aztec.
If after the achievement involving Statue of Zeus, I'd also disable BNW for it.
 
I have done Shaka and Honor, and it worked well. If you have raging barbarians to conquer, it is nice to have. You can use it wisely. That free General can be a wonderful asset early on if you want to snatch a wonder or some prize land.

I do like taking the Tradition opener... because without it, city borders just don't seem to expand. But I have gone Tradition>Honor and been okay. As long as you stick with your plan and you don't turn into a crybaby when your cities are unhappy or you are behind in science, you'll be fine.

I think that the earlier you take it, the better. You get that 50% XP going early, you can have madmen monsters on your front lines. Unkillable pikemen... or zulus... or whatever.
 
I see Honor and Piety more as trees you pick a few policies from before you finish either Tradition or Liberty, and which you fill out instead of picking Patronage/Aesthetics/Commerce/Exploration. Most of the later policies in Honor and Piety are not that worthwhile early on, so picking something from Tradition or Liberty is more helpful at that point. For example, the Honor opener is good when you're in the barb hunting phase, but Warrior Code and Military Tradition are less useful until you are attacking other civs, because barbs only get you a limited amount of XP.
 
Honor, ever misjudged by the community, is easily the best tree if you're planning for conquest. The people who are saying Honor is bad are counting on the AI's poor tactical management to carry the day anyway without the Honor bonuses using one of the other two trees (ever played multiplayer? Taking cities is HARD against an opponent who plays the tactical game properly!). This basically amount to exploiting the bad AI and if that's how you want to play, fine, and in this case of exploit-gameplay Honor does indeed have less to offer, because Honor is a waste if you can win your wars anyway without it - but it isn't what the game is balanced around. Stuff like +15% combat strength from nearby melee units and the instant Great General makes Honor invaluable for early conquest. In multiplayer, where the catastrophic decisions of the AI aren't a factor, a Honor-player can bring the significantly more powerful army needed to take cities to bear than one using either of the other trees in the early game. You were asking about Shaka; Shaka should definitely default to Honor unless the game situation specifically dictates otherwise.

Calouste has a point in what he writes above about some some of the later Honor policies mostly being better 'later', but this is no different from the other trees which also feature policies that only really come into play once you've grown a bit. The real idea with Honor isn't to postpone it or to pick only a few policies from it, however; you are supposed to take it immediately and go beat up neighbouring civs/city-states. Same as Liberty and Tradition, the power of Honor wanes as game time passes so in most cases it isn't something you should postpone. Get it first thing, then get the army that will make it pay off for you: The Honor player expands through conquest - while the Liberty player is building cheap Settlers for cities, you are building cheap melee units with which to steal those same cities and bully Workers from independents.
 
I've always viewed Honor as a secondary tree to dip into, only if I know I'm going for a conquest/domination victory. Honor and Autocracy go hand-in-hand.

Honor can also be useful if you're a culture-heavy civ like Poland for its military caste policy. The +1 happiness and +2 culture, combined with tradition's oligarchy, can be useful. But, it's very difficult to do without sacrificing other policies.
 
I like to open honor when I have a handful of CS nearby. The combat bonus vs barbs helps clear early quests and the opener also notifies you of potential threats to your trade network. As long as you are paying attention to your notifications, you can maintain a smaller military that fights at a moments notice.

When there are no camps to clear your units should be in your cities for the 1 happy and 2 culture. Once you finish honor it is time to DOW your weakest neighbor. Concentrate on wiping out the units for the gold and if possible take only the capital to minimize warmonger points.
 
Honor, ever misjudged by the community, is easily the best tree if you're planning for conquest. The people who are saying Honor is bad are counting on the AI's poor tactical management to carry the day anyway without the Honor bonuses using one of the other two trees (ever played multiplayer? Taking cities is HARD against an opponent who plays the tactical game properly!). This basically amount to exploiting the bad AI and if that's how you want to play, fine, and in this case of exploit-gameplay Honor does indeed have less to offer, because Honor is a waste if you can win your wars anyway without it - but it isn't what the game is balanced around. Stuff like +15% combat strength from nearby melee units and the instant Great General makes Honor invaluable for early conquest. In multiplayer, where the catastrophic decisions of the AI aren't a factor, a Honor-player can bring the significantly more powerful army needed to take cities to bear than one using either of the other trees in the early game. You were asking about Shaka; Shaka should definitely default to Honor unless the game situation specifically dictates otherwise.

Calouste has a point in what he writes above about some some of the later Honor policies mostly being better 'later', but this is no different from the other trees which also feature policies that only really come into play once you've grown a bit. The real idea with Honor isn't to postpone it or to pick only a few policies from it, however; you are supposed to take it immediately and go beat up neighbouring civs/city-states. Same as Liberty and Tradition, the power of Honor wanes as game time passes so in most cases it isn't something you should postpone. Get it first thing, then get the army that will make it pay off for you: The Honor player expands through conquest - while the Liberty player is building cheap Settlers for cities, you are building cheap melee units with which to steal those same cities and bully Workers from independents.

Okay, I'm a multiplayer hound, and you got me curious. Can anyone else back up Honor as a good opener in MP?
 
I always pick honor if I'm the Aztecs. If I'm not then I rarely even consider going down the tree at all, let alone using it as an opener. I used it when I was Zulu once but it felt superfluous and I did fine as the Huns and Chinese without it. So Aztecs are the only viable reason to pick Honor in my opinion.
 
Strangely I've found myself picking honour more since BNW. If I'm on a large Pangea and a long way from other Civs, I can find myself getting overrun with barbarians, so the Honour opener is useful, not the least to see where the barb camps are. You get into a chicken and egg situation where you can't afford maintenance on enough units to keep your trade routes secure, which means you have low income until you get banking etc.
 
In my current game, I opened Honor for the barb camp notification, culture/kill, and barb bonus, then I went Liberty for the free Settler and Worker, then went back to the left side of Honor for the EXP bonus, then finished Liberty for the free GrPer, and then finished Honor for the gold/kill. It's working out well so far.

I'm only on King level, however, and I'm playing the Maurya from the More Civilizations gang. They get a Courthouse replacement that can be built in any city and immediately convert 75% of the city's population to your religion. With the correct Religion Beliefs, that can be a great way to combat unhappiness from Puppeted cities.
 
Okay, I'm a multiplayer hound, and you got me curious. Can anyone else back up Honor as a good opener in MP?

Good if you wanna catch an extra great general for citadel pushes. Make sure to finish 1st or you will fall behind the Rationalism players. But you can always just open Honor to get the Statue of Zeus if extra wonders are enabled. You will probably be the only contestant :)

It's situationnal. This is good if you are going to make a huge push and want to ensure a good blast.

-----------------------------

In other note Honor is a solid tree for fast deity domination games.
 
I have two deity domination video LPs in my signature proving that opening honor is at least viable against the AI ..

You have some epic tank battles, man! I like your style, ignoring science grossly, while turning your army into a bunch of indestructible cuthroats. That surely is the way to play honor.
 
Good if you wanna catch an extra great general for citadel pushes. Make sure to finish 1st or you will fall behind the Rationalism players. But you can always just open Honor to get the Statue of Zeus if extra wonders are enabled. You will probably be the only contestant :)

It's situationnal. This is good if you are going to make a huge push and want to ensure a good blast.

Not sure what you mean by "make sure to finish 1st."

Anyway, Statue of Zeus is very useful (cities are where most pushes are defeated) but it telegraphs to everyone exactly what you intend when that wonder pops.

EDIT: I suppose you could finish the wonder exactly when you invade, but if anyone checks the Diplo panel and notices you went Honor, they are going to be prepared. Same if they look at your cap and notice Temple of Zeus is building.
 
Not sure what you mean by "make sure to finish 1st."

Anyway, Statue of Zeus is very useful (cities are where most pushes are defeated) but it telegraphs to everyone exactly what you intend when that wonder pops.

EDIT: I suppose you could finish the wonder exactly when you invade, but if anyone checks the Diplo panel and notices you went Honor, they are going to be prepared. Same if they look at your cap and notice Temple of Zeus is building.

It doesn't entirely expose your goals. You could be choosing it to snag an easy wonder for later faith :c5faith:, culture :c5culture:, and tourism :tourism: if you don't want to have to compete too hard for them. You also could be getting it so your neighbors don't as a preemptive strike on there war effort. It's a stretch but there are other reasons to get it perhaps.
 
I see Honor and Piety more as trees you pick a few policies from before you finish either Tradition or Liberty, and which you fill out instead of picking Patronage/Aesthetics/Commerce/Exploration. Most of the later policies in Honor and Piety are not that worthwhile early on, so picking something from Tradition or Liberty is more helpful at that point. For example, the Honor opener is good when you're in the barb hunting phase, but Warrior Code and Military Tradition are less useful until you are attacking other civs, because barbs only get you a limited amount of XP.


Good Posting, Honor is Great but for Economy in Most Cases 3p Till Military caste is enough. If u are playing a Duel with the right civs like Germany, songhai etc. Honor is also a Great tree to boost your Economy. Normally You will atleast Need some Points in Liberty or Tradition Mixed in before go
To war with full Honor.




Gesendet von meinem iPhone mit Tapatalk
 
I always choose Honor second (after Tradition) with Raging Barbs. Even after the culture from barb-hunting stops putting a drop in the culture bucket, you can still build cheap scouts to garrison all your cities and maximize Oligarchy (Tradition) and Military Caste (Honor). You adopt Honor to warmonger--no question about it--but it also pays for itself in culture.
 
I always choose Honor second (after Tradition) with Raging Barbs. Even after the culture from barb-hunting stops putting a drop in the culture bucket, you can still build cheap scouts to garrison all your cities and maximize Oligarchy (Tradition) and Military Caste (Honor). You adopt Honor to warmonger--no question about it--but it also pays for itself in culture.

The problem with this is on Immortal/Deity the AIs will clean up the map of any barb camps very efficiently, even ones near you. They will camp scouts around your borders and rush in to claim any barb camp you're trying to farm. You need lots of units to protect your culture farm barb camps from the AI. If you do succeed in this, it can be a huge benefit.
On deity with raging barbarians I have been able to kill one barb every turn when I've had two farm camps near my borders, but they sure are difficult to keep safe.

One plus side is also if you manage this, that all your troops will have at least two promotions when it's time to go kill the other Civs. In some cases it could even be worth it to delay that phase until the enemy has enough troops and you've finished Honor. DoW the neighbour some 20-25 turns before you're finishing Honor, so the AI will build more troops -> then just turtle up and avoid completely killing any unit before Honor finisher (AI will retreat badly wounded troops). Now, as you finish Honor, you will get a big, easy gold bonus from conquering the first neighbour. To add to the benefit, you can repeat the same early DoW to your second neighbour while you're still in the process of killing the first one. More time for the AI is more Honor money to you.

Oh, and use the early culture boost to finish Honor sooner, and then progress taking policies in Tradition / Liberty before you are able to dive into Commerce or Rationalism.
 
Top Bottom