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Is Humankind Civilization VII Under a New Banner?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by AtlantisAuthor, Aug 19, 2019.

  1. SupremacyKing2

    SupremacyKing2 Deity

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    Love that they are going with 1 Army Per Tile on the main map. As it should be!

    So far the screenshot and dev description looks and sounds great. Sounds like they will incorporate more tactics like flanking and terrain considerations in HK than in EL. Can't wait!
     
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  2. KayAU

    KayAU King

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    I loaded up Endless Legend again today to remind myself how it was, and I will say the tactical combat in that game is not great. Games like Fallen Enchantress and Age of Wonders 3 do this a lot better, and I hope Amplitude will move in that direction.

    I was also reminded of one of the other reasons Endless Legend didn't quite resonate with me: how visually busy and overloaded the map and interface is. You can give me a screenshot of early game Civ, and I will immediately be able to read the terrain, resources, tactical qualities and strategic possibilities. With Endless Legend, what I see is a cluttered, colorful mess, which I'm not really all that excited about exploring. Still, don't get me wrong. I was impressed by Amplitude's more recent UI desing in Endless Space 2, and I believe Humankind's real world setting alone will help make everything on the map more immediately understandable and recognizable.

    I am optimistic about Humankind. Whether it will be "better than Civ" is likely going to be down to personal taste...I would love if I felt that way, but honestly, it would take a lot. What I fully expect, though, is a high quality game which is distinct enough from both Civ and Endless Legend to feel fresh and original.
     
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  3. Bosque

    Bosque Warlord

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    From the GameReactor article I read:
    "fame is the aim of the game. It's all about leaving a mark on history through your actions and adapting to the situation by assimilating new cultural traits into your own. That said, you can, if you want, keep your original culture, but it will be difficult as you get no new abilities, however, you would get more fame for playing with those self-imposed restrictions."
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2019
  4. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Deity

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    This.

    IF you are going to be able to pick and choose a 'culture' based on the traits you want from it Era to Era, then whatever Title you put on your Culture/Civ, that's all it is, just a title for a goulash of semi-related or unrelated traits.

    Which makes it not a historical game, but a Fantasy game with historical titles.

    Color me Not Impressed.

    Have any of the Developers ever read Jared Diamond: "Geography is Destiny"? - Or taken a historical, cultural, or population Geography course? Unless there are some serious interactions between one Eras 'traits/cultures' and the potential picks from the next, this is all going to degenerate into a game of Always Follow A with Z and then Q and it doesn't matter whether the 'cultural/historical traits' are called Egyptian, Mycenean, Klingon or Slobbovian.

    However, being a critter of Professional Optimism, I'll wait to learn more of the details of the game. Speculation without the details, as in this thread, just makes me more skeptical about the game . . .
     
  5. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    In a sense geography = destiny is true here. We know Egypt has a bonus based on rivers. Therefore, if you settle a place with a lot of rivers, Egypt would be appealing. And if you settled in a place without many rivers, it may not appeal and some other civ might. It makes sense that many of the Bronze Age civs should have bonuses associated with geography.

    It sounds like later civs' traits aren't so tied to geography. Romans have a bonus to roads and Industry. But when you adopt a new civ, you keep that geography-based bonus from the first one. So your second choice might either be to shore up a deficiency or to counter something your neighbors are doing. And around and around it goes.

    One major question I have, is do ages change on a per player basis, by hitting some technological threshold, or is it based on a fixed number of turns, or if the average tech level of all players have to reach a threshold?
     
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  6. CivLuvah

    CivLuvah Emperor

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    Welp. Guess no use playing as China* for an entire game of HK.

    *I know that technically China's historical continuity has more to do with historiography and less about what each dynasty actually was or where each came from, but I just wanted to give an obvious example for the sake of argument.
     
  7. Trav'ling Canuck

    Trav'ling Canuck Deity

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    Also, marketing is one of the dark arts. Let's not forget that.
     
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  8. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Deity

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    So whenever you settle by a river you should plan to play 'Egyptian'? That's a pretty grotesque simplification, because, off the top of my head, all the Mesopotamian civilizations, and the Harappan, and early northern Chinese, and the North American 'Cahokian" Civs/cultures also settled along rivers. So what sets 'Egyptian' apart aside from some arbitrary game definition?
    The answer is that it was a combination of Geographical factors, not just 'Next to a River'. IF they are not going to bother with the combinations, then the selections are going to be pretty arbitrary. IF Egypt had been settled along the HwangHo or the middle Mississippi instead of the Nile with its prominent cliffs of limestone, granite and sandstone, there would be no Egyptian pyramids - might be some big earthwork mounds, but nothing as impressive as the rocky Tourist Traps, because the combination of predictable soil-renewing flooding, large population and handy building stone made pyramids possible, while in China, Illinois and Mesopotamia they ended up building in mud brick, adobe, rammed earth or reinforced earth.

    The combinations make a difference - But, admittedly, they also make it more complicated and we have not seen the details of any 'complications' yet.

    But later traits in civilizations don't spring out of nothing. Using Romans as an example, the earliest Roman Army was a simple decimal phalanx of spearmen, nothing at all like the Legion of either the Republic or the Principiate. And the first Roman roads were built to connect inland Rome with better harbors than Ostia, so they had to be 'engineered' well enough for heavy cart traffic to deliver tonnages of grain to Rome. The Roman style road-building isn't going to happen if all your big cities are along a fat, navigable river like the Nile leading to big harbors on the coast and access to a ribbon of auto-irrigated farmland from one end of the river to the other - they'd never be needed.

    In other words, is the ability to select new Traits from anther Era Menu based on the actions of the individual player, or all the players in the game, or most of them, or is it completely arbitrary? As in the current Civ VI Era system, which is both Arbitrary and utterly Eurocentric, this is another potentially problematic element in HK.
    BUT, just as we have in Civ VI, arbitrary and Eurocentric are not Insurmountable in a commercial game . . .
     
  9. Xefjord

    Xefjord Warlord

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    Oof haven't been here in a while and had a long read to catch up, but now I can toss in my opinion:

    Civ 6 Expansion 3 vs Humankind, whoever adds Vietnam first becomes my new best friend

    No but in all seriousness, my initial look at this game was one of great excitement (I had heard of endless legends and how it was supposedly better than Civ, but I was never interested in the setting). However the more I have read into it the more skeptical I have become. I do NOT like this mix matching of cultures. At. All. If we were talking about a natural development of culture like Early East Asian inhabitants being able to evolve into China, Korea, Japan, Vietnam, The Thai peoples, etc. Sure. I could absolutely get behind that. But it sounds like if China is not a beginning civilization in this game, I will be FORCED to play a cultural group that I don't much care for until I reach the age where I can pick China, Japan, Vietnam, whatever. And even when I do: I still won't be completely Chinese since I am retaining the features of the previous cultural groups I was forced to play. I hate that.

    If you seriously think about it: While you CAN have 1 million different possibilities made out of cultural mixing, if you only want to play 1 culture? You are literally restricted to only 10 civilizations. And that is the 10 civilizations in the very start, because any culture you adopt after that is just going to be a mutt of that culture and the original culture you were forced to pick in the beginning of the game. This is unless they make repeats of the same cultural legacy across multiple ages (Like Tang China evolving into Ming China in the future) but then I feel like the actual scope of cultures covered in the game is going to be significantly smaller that the wide range of diversity we get in Civ 6. It is really hard for me to see how this mix-matching cultures can work well for a Sinosphere loving history roleplayer like me.

    The vast majority of everything else on this Humankind game does indeed look really cool, the combat is interesting (Although I don't know exactly how it will play out yet) I LOVE the map and terrain, and especially the look and development of the cities. But if I am able to go from straight Olmecs into Vikings? That is a hard pass from me and I would much rather just stick with Civ, especially so if I can't even play any of the Sinosphere cultural civs I am interested in from the start and am forced to mix.
     
  10. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    All this talk of Humankind just makes me want FXS to announce a third expansion for Civ VI. Or at least another patch.
     
  11. Human Crouton

    Human Crouton Prince

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    Impossible! Devs can't communicate with consumers. How did you get this information?
     
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  12. AsH2

    AsH2 Warlord

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    I count 6x7 in last pic.
     
  13. Trav'ling Canuck

    Trav'ling Canuck Deity

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    The devs indicated that they've learned from EL - well, what else would they say? - and made changes to the combat system accordingly. One of those changes may have been to shrink the size of the tactical combat area. I would guess that a smaller area would make it easier to make a competitive AI.

    On the other hand, it's possible that the size of the tactical combat area may scale to the number of the units involved, rather than being a single size fits all.

    Finally, don't know if this has been mentioned earlier on this thread or not, but one of the articles indicated that there are 3 rounds of combat per turn, which I took to mean game turn. So if the battle isn't won or lost in that time, it carries over to the next turn, allowing you to send reinforcements into the fight.
     
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  14. mitsho

    mitsho Deity

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    Vietnam is actually a good contender for one of the 10 modern era slots. I‘m very curious what they‘ll do with those.

    In the end, this is still a game, and not a simulation (regarding @Boris Gudenuf objections). Making the civs evolve like you describe makes the game either too predictable or too complex to code. So you still need that suspension of disbelief. I (regarding @Xefjord objections) am a bit on the opposite in that I don‘t like playing Sweden and having to wait for 3 ages to get to my uniques. I lose interest with Sumeria after having conquered one or two civs and have nothing „special“ to look forward to. It doesn‘t make sense, civ should be interesting enough in the later eras with everything vanilla, but it just isn‘t for me. So, yeah, different games for different tastes, I guess?
     
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  15. civxander

    civxander Chieftain

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    Here is an interview with one of the community manager (Amplitude Studios) in german language.



    Use subtitle to translate
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2019
  16. Gedemon

    Gedemon Modder Moderator

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    @Deliverator @sukritact do you have any ideas on how the Endless series compare to the civilization series in relation to graphic modding ?
     
  17. Lordoflinks

    Lordoflinks Chieftain

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    From what I am aware, the Endless games have a fair bit of modding potential in terms of XML modding, but they have never quite had the modding communities of other similar games, and so while the tools can be powerful, they are often not utilized or mods are abandoned due to their makers moving on. I'm not sure how easy it is to modify the UI or add brand new mechanics like you can do with some Civ VI mods.

    As for graphic modding, as far as I am aware, you can retexture stuff in Endless Space 2, but you cannot import new models. (Source: https://www.moddb.com/features/endless-space-2-developers-talk-mod-support-for-the-4x-game). Overall, if the same restriction holds for Humankind, and you cannot import new models, I imagine that will mean we won't get any new wonders or units mods for Humankind of the sort that we get for Civ.
     
  18. Trav'ling Canuck

    Trav'ling Canuck Deity

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    Initial impressions are that HK is not set up to be as much of a role-playing experience as Civ. You're not a particular leader, you're not a particular historical civ throughout the whole of history. You don't play against opponents with a particular personality.

    On the other hand, it's also not a rise-and-fall experience like History of the World where you guide different civs in succession through their glory years, then move on to someone else the next era (the old mega-fun Rise and Fall boardgame did something similar, focussed just on the decline of the Roman Empire and the various invaders entering and setting up new kingdoms, where you stayed with one people until their best days were behind you, then switched to someone new, the timing of when to switch being a key strategic decision).

    It looks to be something new, and we'll have to see more details to understand better how, if at all, HK may appeal to role-players. If the 10 civs per era are geographically diverse, such that there's always at least one civ per era from south-east asia, for example, that may address @Xefjord concern. I can see that some people might be okay with moving from one African empire to another, for example, but not want to hit eras where they have to either skip getting a new trait or else adopt a culture from a different part of the world. It's also possible, however, that the game is intended to take a broader / more abstract view, and think more in terms of "what if your African nation developed these traits associated historically with Victorian Britain?" Which wouldn't appeal to some people.


    I've seen no mention so far of modding support. It's possible I've just missed it, but it doesn't seem to be part of HK's initial marketing. As such, it may not be something they intend to support to the same extent as prior versions of Civ. If true, that's a lost opportunity for HK.
     
  19. Zaarin

    Zaarin My Dearest Doctor

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    I'd point out that Amplitude creates 4X games, just like Civ, whereas Paradox creates grand strategy games. While comparisons between Civ and EU are common, the two games belong to completely different genres, whereas Humankind will be the same genre. IMO Amplitude creates better 4X games than Firaxis does; Civ's charm has always been its roots in real history. Will Humankind be better than Civ? Not at launch, if previous Amplitude releases are anything to go on, but six months or a year in I think it will be. Endless Space 2 is, IMO, the best 4X game on the market right now.

     
  20. Xefjord

    Xefjord Warlord

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    If we can get civilizations that start in a similar geographic area for each age then I could possibly be more accepting of the fact I am forced to jump from Civ to Civ. However the fact the Nubia, Libya, and Egypt have already been confirmed is a little worrisome. Giving a pretty good parallel to our "Three Greece" situation, only having all of these in the SAME ancient age means that the initial lineup may be too europe/north africa heavy. I don't think there is going to be an even geographical split among our choices for each age...
     

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