Humankind Game by Amplitude

[Boris Gudenuf]

I would like to see more of that (tech?) choice from the nomad screenshot.

Also re Germans: There could also be Prussians in renaissance/enlightenment.

Wonder what modern civs are though, maybe more like ideologies?

To sum up a whole bunch of questions so far:

1. IF they are going to label Civs/Culture Groups in each Era, how specific are they going to be? That is, Egypt/Egyptians is a fairly unitary group in the Ancient/Bronze Age Era, but, for instance, will a later China or Korea be specific to a Dynasty in its characteristics or a (to use a Civ Profanity) "Blob" of characteristics stretching over an entire Era and several different Polities or Dynasties?
2. How is 'advancing' going to be handled. As asked previously, will Technical/Scientific and Cultural/Social be separated, and how? If separated, how will they interact? Will Technical/Social advances be linear or will Groups with entirely different cultures and geographical surroundings get some kind of 'differences' in their Technical advancement opportunities/possibilities?
3. How will Leadership be handled? Or will it be ignored, and you deal with an Undifferentiated Culture Group? Or will there be a culturally distinct Diplomat/Minister/Agent you deal with for interactions who represents various individual leaderships or leadership groups (Dynasties, Ministries, Governments?) for diplomatic/trade/other interactions?
4. We need more details on the combat and unit movement systems. Right now we're just making guesses based on existing EL, ES systems used in other games by the same Company/Design Group. While some of those guesses are probably valid, the Devil is in the Details, and it would be rash to assume any of the details are the same.
5. What is the basis for building your Civ/Culture Group? Is it the hoary old Civ model, basing everything on the founding and development of Cities, or is it Something Else - especially if they are including a 'nomad' component (pastoral?) it would almost have to be.
6. If 'Fame' is the Pre-eminent and primary Victory Condition, what are the Details? Will the accumulation of 'Fame' be diverse enough to allow for the development of Large and Small, 'Wide' or 'Tall' Civs?

This list is, of course, incomplete: each of us, I'm sure, has their own list of Questions, and most of us are probably adding to the list every day!

Finally, if, as @Cerilis posted, the 'modern' cultures/civs are like ideologies, how would they account for the fact that most of the so-called Ideologies have singularly and specifically Nationalistic components. National Socialism might have 'socialism' in the title, but it was mostly German Nationalism taken to extremes. That goes for virtually all other 'fascist' or Ultra-Conservative movements. Communism, likewise, quickly became 'Communism in one country' wrapped up in Russian Nationalism or Chinese Nationalism (or Cuban, German, Hungarian, Polish - the supposedly monolithic Soviet Satellites in fact had some very distinct differences among themselves and with Soviet Russia despite all being 'Communist'). Also, 'Ideologies' are frequently mistaken for economic or governmental systems: the current state of China shows that a totalitarian Non-Representative government can embrace rampant capitalism as an economic choice without being in any way democratic or 'free', and 'democratic' governments from 1933 Germany to 2019 USA show that such a government despite popular democracy can embrace policies actively or passively opposed by the majority of the citizens.
I suggest that using 'Ideologies' instead of specific countries/nations in the Modern Era will be very hard to do without either going into Political or Ideological Fantasy - the Utopian view of what each Ideology's followers thought it was instead of what the ideologies all became (have, so far, become) in reality.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

So, there's a PC Gamer article that you have to download the PDF for. That's where the Libyans are mentioned. It says the Libyans and Nubians are Bronze Age. If that's true, we know all 10 BA civ options. It also said that Nubia is commerce-oriented.

Another topic it brought up is Fame and Ages. There are 21 Fame stars per Age. You need 7 to advance to the next Age.

Presumably you don't compete with other civs for all 21 stars or else only a maximum of 3 players could advance to the next Age. Probably Wonders stars are competitive though.

Also, it would seem there are 126 total Fame stars to be gained to win the game.

Additionally, it has 1 more piece of art in a collage where all the other parts are civ cards. It shows knights with black crosses on white barding riding into a castle gate in snow. The gate has conical towers and there are brick buildings in the background. It strikes me as being a Baltic scene, perhaps of the Northern Crusade. I'm guessing these are Teutonic Knights and the card is for Medieval Prussia or the HRE.


I've decided to include the Teutonic Order to Medieval and move the HRE to Renaissance based on this. The Order preceded the Duchy/Kingdom of Prussia, so it doesn't make sense that these Teutonic Knights entering Marienburg would represent Prussia. The TO were kind of a client state of the Holy Roman Empire and initially part of Poland, but were not controlled by either.

 

[cvb]

you can only monoculture one of the 10 starting civs, so you are forced to jump from civ to civ if you want to play any non-starting civ.

As I understand it, the player starts with nomads wandering around in Neolithic. The first "civs" to choose are in Bronze Age. *** Of course I have no idea how feasible it is to skip that initial choice (gain extra Fame, forego the benefits of any "civ") and continue to play without "civ" towards the Classical era and choose your "civ" there ...

Another possibility would be advanced starts. Ie. you start as medieval XXX and never change that ...


*** I like the aspect, that you choose a "civ" AFTER you know your starting location. 'Play the map!'

.

 

[Zaarin]

Also, Phoenicians in classical? Heh I guess they mean 'Carthage++' too.

Eh, Canaanite Phoenicians got overshadowed by their North African colonies in the Classical Era, but nevertheless Phoenicia remained significant into the Classical Period. NB that Phoenician was spoken in Lebanon for hundreds of years after Aramaic displaced Hebrew in Israel, even long after it was conquered by Rome.

Korea's Goryeo dynasty (famous for its celadon) definitely originated in the medieval era, but some of its significant developments like early gunpowder weapons (including the hwacha) came during the late 14th century. I guess the question is whether we consider the 14th century to be Renaissance-era. If yes, arguably Korea's Goryeo dynasty straddled medieval and Renaissance/Enlightenment eras.

I'd call Joseon Renaissance Korea. 14th century is straddling the Late Middle Ages.

 

[Solomonic Wisdom]

HRE and Franks being separate entities seems crazy to me, especially in the same era. Maybe they are same entity spelled differently, or maybe they are in different eras but it would be so damn weird for these two being in medieval roster.

I agree it does not make too much sense to have the Franks and the HRE coexist in the same era, although the Franks did not just rule where the HRE emerged even at this late stage. However, in my humble opinion, it makes every sense to separate them as of 911 when the Saxon or soon Ottonian dynasty took over, with the Franks confined to the early medieval and the HRE to the subsequent eras. The Franks were the tribe that founded the Frankish Empire, ruled by the Merovingian and Carolingian dynasties, which after the Treaty of Verdun in 843 split into three Frankish realms, out of which the Kingdom of France, the HRE, and Lorraine and what else followed Middle Francia then emerged. In the immediate aftermath, Frankish dynasties ruled all three of them: The Frankish Carolingian and the Frankish Capetian dynasties initially in what emerged as the Kingdom of France and the Frankish Carolingian dynasty initially in what emerged as the HRE. However, Frankish and Carolingian rule over East Francia and therefore over what emerged as an important constituent part of the HRE only lasted until 911.

(As an aside: Do not confuse Francia and what is today Franconia. The former stemmed from the region surrounding the Rhine and the latter signifies a region in what is today the north of the state of Bavaria and at a later stage became the north of the Kingdom of Bavaria but is nevertheless culturally certainly not Bavarian. Also the term Saxon is very ambiguous. The Saxon in Anglo-Saxon is all about what is now Lower Saxony, i.e. the coastal region near the North Sea. This is also the Saxony that Charlemagne conquered brutally. The Saxon in the meaning of the above is now Saxony-Anhalt in the central east of the country and used to be the Prussian Province of Saxony. And then there is Saxony in the south east of the country, which was the former Electorate and Kingdom of Saxony. Very much unlike the first, the third was also influenced by Western Slavs and is still home to the Sorbs.)

 

[Solomonic Wisdom]

Well, here's the card I'm interpreting as either the Franks or Merovingians. HRE was said by the devs on the livestream.



It appears to me to be too early in the Medieval era to be the HRE proper and that's not the crown style associated with Charlemagne. The best I can come up with for the crown is the early Merovingians. They has spikes. Not quite like that, and usually with a fleur de lis, but it looks like what they put on their coins.

This and I believe Amplitude is a French company? France has always focused more on the Merovingians (Clovis I and the various French places of significance for the Merovingian dynasty) and Germany has always focused more on the Carolingians (Pepin and Charlemagne and Aachen or Aix-la-Chapelle in what is now the very west of Germany).

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

With the new image that appears to be a card showing the Teutonic Order, I think the HRE is probably Renaissance rather than Medieval. So the progression of the Germans would be (Med.)Teutonic Order>(Ren.)HRE>(Ind.)Germans and France would be (Med.)Franks>(Ren.)French>(Ind.)???.

You might even through the Goths in under the German progression for Classical. Perhaps Gaul is the Classical predecessor for the Franks?

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Korea's Goryeo dynasty (famous for its celadon) definitely originated in the medieval era, but some of its significant developments like early gunpowder weapons (including the hwacha) came during the late 14th century. I guess the question is whether we consider the 14th century to be Renaissance-era. If yes, arguably Korea's Goryeo dynasty straddled medieval and Renaissance/Enlightenment eras.

I was going off the assumption that the Hwachas weren't regularly used until after the Goryeo Dynasty but in the Joseon Dynasty which would coincide with the Renaissance Era. And do the Hwacha being confirmed this is why I assumed the UUs would coincide with that era and when Korea would appear. However apparently Industrial Germany seem to be getting U-Boats so UUs might not be solely defined as appearing in the era they were invented or used so maybe we could get Medieval Korea.

This and I believe Amplitude is a French company? France has always focused more on the Merovingians (Clovis I and the various French places of significance for the Merovingian dynasty) and Germany has always focused more on the Carolingians (Pepin and Charlemagne and Aachen or Aix-la-Chapelle in what is now the very west of Germany).

I think it is still weird that they would decide to give both France and Germany medieval representation when it seems other places in the world might not get any. If I had to choose I'd only relegate Medieval Europe to HRE (Representing both France and Germany), Byzantine Empire, and Vikings/Norse if we only got ten slots. That way we could get in Khmer, Mali, Feudal Japan for Samurai, Mongolia, any Muslim Caliphate/Arabia, Inca or Aztecs or Maya (Maya could fit in classical while Inca or Aztecs could become Renaissance?), and another wildcard.
Of course since Amplitude is a French company this might make more sense as to their choices, but it doesn't feel right.

 

[Solomonic Wisdom]

I was going off the assumption that the Hwachas weren't regularly used until after the Goryeo Dynasty but in the Joseon Dynasty which would coincide with the Renaissance Era. And do the Hwacha being confirmed this is why I assumed the UUs would coincide with that era and when Korea would appear. However apparently Industrial Germany seem to be getting U-Boats so UUs might not be solely defined as appearing in the era they were invented or used so maybe we could get Medieval Korea.


I think it is still weird that they would decide to give both France and Germany medieval representation when it seems other places in the world might not get any. If I had to choose I'd only relegate Medieval Europe to HRE (Representing both France and Germany), Byzantine Empire, and Vikings/Norse if we only got ten slots. That way we could get in Khmer, Mali, Feudal Japan for Samurai, Mongolia, any Muslim Caliphate/Arabia, Inca or Aztecs or Maya (Maya could fit in classical while Inca or Aztecs could become Renaissance?), and another wildcard.
Of course since Amplitude is a French company this might make more sense as to their choices, but it doesn't feel right.

I certainly get your point about global balance in representation but the HRE really cannot represent France.

 

[ChocolateShake]

Another topic it brought up is Fame and Ages. There are 21 Fame stars per Age. You need 7 to advance to the next Age.

Presumably you don't compete with other civs for all 21 stars or else only a maximum of 3 players could advance to the next Age. Probably Wonders stars are competitive though.

Also, it would seem there are 126 total Fame stars to be gained to win the game.

Hmm, I'd guess after you gain 7 stars, you get to decide when you'll advance. I suppose they'll probably allow players to hang out in the age for longer and try to get all the stars available for it, or leap ahead and focus on the new ages.

I could imagine some interesting scenarios, like getting an extra star or half-star when you're playing as a civ from a previous era, or maybe quite a few more if you're the first to complete key fame events.

Depending on how it actually works, there could be lots of fun choices there.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Hmm, I'd guess after you gain 7 stars, you get to decide when you'll advance. I suppose they'll probably allow players to hang out in the age for longer and try to get all the stars available for it, or leap ahead and focus on the new ages.

I could imagine some interesting scenarios, like getting an extra star or half-star when you're playing as a civ from a previous era, or maybe quite a few more if you're the first to complete key fame events.

Depending on how it actually works, there could be lots of fun choices there.

Indeed, it seems like the details of this system with either make or break it.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I certainly get your point about global balance in representation but the HRE really cannot represent France.

I'm thinking more along the lines of basing it around Charlemagne and the Carolingian Dynasty but depending on the person, they might not consider that true beginning of the HRE.

I just feel that when they announced that there would be 60 different civs to choose from I wasn't aware that at least 5 or 6 would just be derived from various periods of French and German history and who knows how many more Chinese dynasties they will put in.

 

[Solomonic Wisdom]

I'm thinking more along the lines of basing it around Charlemagne and the Carolingian Dynasty but depending on the person, they might not consider that true beginning of the HRE.

I just feel that when they announced that there would be 60 different civs to choose from I wasn't aware that at least 5 or 6 would just be derived from various periods of French and German history and who knows how many more Chinese dynasties they will put in.

Yes Francia under Charlemagne's rule is best suited to represent France and Germany and others together if you must, but not the HRE, as both the Kingdom of France and the HRE emerged from Francia under Charlemagne's and his son's rule and were very unfortunately far too often bitter rivals since then and until after WWII, not least with a view to claims to what remained of Lothair's Middle Francia (Lorraine etc.). From the point of view of gaming and alternative history, it is of course entertaining to consider what might have happened had Francia not split.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I'd call Joseon Renaissance Korea. 14th century is straddling the Late Middle Ages.

Don't know about the Far East, but in Europe the 14th Century is the High Middle Ages, and it also highlights the amorphous nature of the terms used in the Game Eras. During the 14th Century in Europe:
Pikes established a clear superiority over Knights (1302, 1314, 1315)
First distilled drinks were introduced (Brandy, in France)
Universities were founded in Florence, Vienna, Perugia, Krakow, Rome, Avignon and other cities
first primitive cannon were used in Europe (Crecy, among other battles) and first Bombard used against a walled city
Moveable Type was first used in Limoges, France (yes, Gutenberg wasn't even first in Europe)
Boccaccio, Dante and Chaucer were all published

So from the beginning of the century to the end there were a lot of 'Renaissance' activities already taking place up to 150 years before the 'official' start of the Renaissance with the fall of Constantinople in 1453..

(As an aside: Do not confuse Francia and what is today Franconia. The former stemmed from the region surrounding the Rhine and the latter signifies a region in what is today the north of the state of Bavaria and at a later stage became the north of the Kingdom of Bavaria but is nevertheless culturally certainly not Bavarian. Also the term Saxon is very ambiguous. The Saxon in Anglo-Saxon is all about what is now Lower Saxony, i.e. the coastal region near the North Sea. This is also the Saxony that Charlemagne conquered brutally. The Saxon in the meaning of the above is now Saxony-Anhalt in the central east of the country and used to be the Prussian Province of Saxony. And then there is Saxony in the south east of the country, which was the former Electorate and Kingdom of Saxony. Very much unlike the first, the third was also influenced by Western Slavs and is still home to the Sorbs.)

Definitely true that Francia and Franconia are entirely different in almost every way, but be careful about calling Franconia non-Bavarian. That was true in the historical past, but when I was there (Aschaffenburg) in 1986 - 1990 it was distinctly Bavarian in language and culture, so much so that visitors from elsewhere in Germany remarked on it constantly (Aschaffenburg is less than 10 km from the Bavarian State border, but the linguistic boundary is extremely sharp and distinct, or was in 1990).

And the Kingdom of Saxony was not only distinct, but quite influential in art, architecture, and German/Central European politics. Among other things, a large percentage of the Foreign Officers that Peter the Great hired to lead and train the regiments of his first 'regular Russian Army' at the beginning of the 18th century were Saxon (the other large percentage were Scots - and you have not lived until you have tried to make sense out of a Scots name like 'Ogilvy' after it has been transliterated into 18th century handwritten Cyrillic and then 'updated' by a modern Soviet scholar trying to emphasize the 'Russian' nature of Peter's officers!)

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Here's a pic of the UI in the lower right corner.

I think the left is science. The middle is something else that accumulates, perhaps comparable to Culture/Civics. I think the right is diplomacy.

The Fame/Age is tracked in the main player data in the upper right:

It is 3/7 to reach the next Age here.

 

[Solomonic Wisdom]

Definitely true that Francia and Franconia are entirely different in almost every way, but be careful about calling Franconia non-Bavarian. That was true in the historical past, but when I was there (Aschaffenburg) in 1986 - 1990 it was distinctly Bavarian in language and culture, so much so that visitors from elsewhere in Germany remarked on it constantly (Aschaffenburg is less than 10 km from the Bavarian State border, but the linguistic boundary is extremely sharp and distinct, or was in 1990).

And the Kingdom of Saxony was not only distinct, but quite influential in art, architecture, and German/Central European politics. Among other things, a large percentage of the Foreign Officers that Peter the Great hired to lead and train the regiments of his first 'regular Russian Army' at the beginning of the 18th century were Saxon (the other large percentage were Scots - and you have not lived until you have tried to make sense out of a Scots name like 'Ogilvy' after it has been transliterated into 18th century handwritten Cyrillic and then 'updated' by a modern Soviet scholar trying to emphasize the 'Russian' nature of Peter's officers!)

I don't want to write too much on this here, but to hopefully only very briefly reply: What you write about Franconia does surprise me a little, as my experience elsewhere in the region now is quite different. Most Franconians emphasise their historic misfortune. The Franconian dialect is distinct to my ears. But Franconia is itself split culturally (and religiously). I agree with what you write about the Kingdom of Saxony generally and will be interested to follow up new information on links to Russia. (I was however aware that Peter the Great's medics were from Edinburgh University.)

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I don't want to write too much on this here, but to hopefully only very briefly reply: What you write about Franconia does surprise me a little, as my experience elsewhere in the region now is quite different. Most Franconians emphasise their historic misfortune. The Franconian dialect is distinct to my ears. But Franconia is itself split culturally (and religiously). I agree with what you write about the Kingdom of Saxony generally and will be interested to follow up new information on links to Russia. (I was however aware that Peter the Great's medics were from Edinburgh University.)

I probably should have prefaced my remarks by emphasizing that my experience was almost solely in the area around Aschaffenburg and probably not applicable equally to the rest of Franconia. Aschaffenburg, of course, had extensive ties to the area west of Franconia since, among other things, the Schloss in Aschaffenburg belonged to the Archbishop/Elector of Mainz and so the town had a serious influx of 'outsiders' whenever he was in residence.

As to Peter's Russia, I happened to get my hands on a manuscript by a Russian/Soviet Doctoral candidate who had tracked every military unit in Peter's Russia, including a bunch of older Streltsi units still used as 'town militia'. Peter's first 29 infantry regiments included regimental commanders named Gordon, Ogilvy, von Delden, von Werden (or Verden), Balck, Bolman, Gulits, Angler, Frazier, Schmidt and Cullen (rendered as 'Kulen'). There are, in fact, very few pure 'Russian' names in the list!

 

[Zaarin]

Don't know about the Far East, but in Europe the 14th Century is the High Middle Ages, and it also highlights the amorphous nature of the terms used in the Game Eras.

Yes, I didn't finish typing: I meant Goryeo was straddling the High and Late Middle Ages while Joseon is Late Medieval/Renaissance.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

Here's a pic of the UI in the lower right corner.

I think the left is science. The middle is something else that accumulates, perhaps comparable to Culture/Civics. I think the right is diplomacy.

The Fame/Age is tracked in the main player data in the upper right:

It is 3/7 here.

For some reason, these images don't appear for me. Anyone else seeing them?

Edit: Working now. Thanks @Eagle Pursuit !

 

[bbbt]

Indeed, it seems like the details of this system with either make or break it.

At the moment it sort of seems like the fame stars are a more streamlined version of the era points.

Apparently they are using the same one-city-per-territory approach ala endless legend? I was not a fan, even if it's a novel approach to fighting city spam.