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Is Humankind Civilization VII Under a New Banner?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by AtlantisAuthor, Aug 19, 2019.

  1. heinous_hat

    heinous_hat Chieftain

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    I remember Endless Legend being more attractive and playable in it's earlier incarnations (2014-15). It lost something along the way, unfortunately.

    A patch in 2015 addressed a performance problem with AMD graphics cards by changing the camera angle and depth of field quality (for everyone). Gone was the beautiful, buttery bokeh effect that helped zoomed objects stand out on an otherwise busy map. It was an unsatisfying quick fix that was never revisited.

    Th UI remains notably good for one reason though... right-click dismisses whatever window, panel or sub-panel you have open, and the performance is instantaneous. Civ VI is clunky and inconsistent by comparison. So hopefully they've honed their design and bring the better aspects to Humankind.
     
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  2. KayAU

    KayAU Chieftain

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    This vaguely reminds me of the old Interplay game Conquest of the New World. In that game, you would allocate points to your faction at the start, like in an RPG character creation screen. Some points would give your faction gameplay benefits, other would affect how many "victory points" you got from doing different things. This basically meant that you chose your own goals before starting a game. It might sound strange, but like most things in the game, it worked rather well.

    Another thing I liked about CotNW, is how exploration worked. Being the first to uncover a landmark would earn you the right to name it, and earn you points. For mountains, uncovering the peak would do, for rivers, you had to follow them until you uncovered the full length. Taller mountains and longer rivers gave more points.
     
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  3. Uberfrog

    Uberfrog Warlord

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    I believe those franchises were rather killed by their own publishers and developers. Their spiritual successors were merely waiting in the wings.

    One would hope that Civ 7 will not be as much a disaster as the last SimCity or RCT were...
     
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  4. Jkchart

    Jkchart Chieftain

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    The issue being though, how exactly does one handle such a controversial topic as religion well

    Lots of room to piss people off.
     
  5. Trav'ling Canuck

    Trav'ling Canuck Warlord Supporter

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    My answer is to treat it as part of a society's overall culture, which it basically is. The idea of religion as being something that spreads separately from the broader culture that gave rise to it is generally a fallacy except for very unique and short periods in history, such as the schisms in the Christian and Muslim worlds, where new versions of an existing faith duked it out inside of an existing culture.

    For most of history, spreading religion is just shorthand for spreading your overall culture. The two items don't often move in isolation. Even when they do, that's no different than any other aspect of culture, which can occassionally be borrowed by other cultures.

    If you have a mechnism for spreading culture (big if, as we don't know if HK does) then you don't need a mechanism for spreading religion.
     
  6. Kaan Boztepe

    Kaan Boztepe Chieftain

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    i sure hope that HK will have lots of different ideas and approaches to the genre than other historical strategy games.
    i wouldnt mind getting totally different civ strenghts or unique units or leaders than we are given by the civ series. it would be refreshing and make both game s unique and enjoyable.
    it is i guess unavoidable to compare each historical game to civ series but we should not try to get the developpers to make their game more civ like , instead allow them to create their vision and hopefully enjoy it. if enough people enjoy it it will make them a lot of money whereas if we bombard them with suggestions with this good idea of civ or this good idea of hearts of iron etc we actually will prevent them to find their own customers and most of the word of mouth or game reviews will be "like civ or like other games" which isnt a good selling point if you already have the said game in question.
     
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  7. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Warlord

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    Doing research on Endless Legends I like the look of the minor factions and how they do have more personality than the city-states in Civ 6, such as their own UUs. That's kind of making me want UU for some of the city-states like Hattusa getting a unique Chariot etc. Giving each one a UU might be too much but I think one for each different type and each militaristic city getting one would be nice.
    Here's hoping for (possibly) next expansion Nassau can replace Lisbon and adds a Buccaneer UU in addition to the ability Lisbon has already.

    Endless Legends does look nice but I'll probably need to wait and see if I can get a better (gaming) computer before I give it a try, though who knows when that will be. Plus Switch games are coming out too. I'm not too keen on sci-fi in general and much more of a history/fantasy nerd anyway, so Endless Space doesn't appeal to me that much. Though it does remind me of Twilight Imperium board game which I own and I'm more of a tabletop game person.
     
  8. Zaarin

    Zaarin My Dearest Doctor

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    Yes, but Endless Space 2 has this feature as well with a much more coherent UI. :p

    The answer, of course, is you consult theologians (or at the very least people who are actually, I don't know, religious?) and anthropologists about the subject. Civ6's religion system does not even vaguely match how religion works in real life or even how it influences history or diplomacy. I'm not terribly hopeful that Amplitude's approach will be better, but it can't be too much worse...
     
  9. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Warlord

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    Military City States should have had Cus from the beginning, but ideally they would be tied in with a well-thought-out Mercenary system also.
    My candidates for 'Mercenary/UU" Militaristic City States would be:

    Berne - Swiss Pikeman, a faster-moving Pikeman that ignores Hill terrain movement limitations
    Darmstadt - Hessian Grenadier, a 'Redcoat' - like Melee Unit that increases Production when Garrisoned in a town (the Prussian and our German armies of the 18th century are all garrisoned in towns, not separate Encampments, and the men were only 'at drill' for about half the day, then encouraged to take second jobs: having a regiment or two in town added several thousand strong young men to the work force, many with skills like carpentry, leather or metal-working.
    Sirte - Numidian Cavalry, a Horseman that can move after attacking and has extra Flanking Bonuses. The Numidians were unarmored with a fist-full of light javelins and literally rode rings around the Roman Cavalry when Hannibal used them - so after Carthage was gone, Rome hired them en masse as Auxiliaries.
    Port Royal - with your Buccaneer UU
    Tongwangchen - Hunnic Horse Archer, Tongwangchen was the capital of the "Huns Who Stayed Behind", out on the western edge of China, but while title gave everybody in Europe gray hairs for a few years, the importance is that both the Chinese and the Romans and the Byzantines hired every Hun rider they could for 500 years or so after Attila was dead and gone.

    I picked up Endless Legend this weekend on sale, but so far have barely had a chance to look at the Tutorial. Two things jumped out at me, though, which I don't think I've seen discussed in depth in relation to Humankind:

    1. The Heroes, which seem to be part of both E Legend and E Space, as a mechanism for Great People, but with more interactivity. As I understand it, you can 'enhance' your Heroes in EL, and what a concept that would be for the sort of Great People Civ VI has: put your Great Writer in a University, or build a Printing Press/Library to spread his Great Works faster, provide a Workshop for a Great Engineer, a Cathedral/Minster/Palace for a Great Artist to decorate - instead of shifting bits of art and literature around, play to the total Output and influence of the 'Heroic Great Person'.
    2. The add-ons to the Units - ability to Upgrade units with equipment and weapons to give them new capabilities. We have seen a sniff of this with the GDR in GS and some of us have posted about the idea of a new type of Promotion - a Technical Promotion, if you will - that relied on Technology to enhance units in between complete Upgrades. As soon as I saw that in E Legend, I started thinking about the possibilities: bronze and then iron armor or weapons, Knights with plate armor, Great Helm Upgrades, Musketmen with Bayonet, Flintlock Upgrades, etc. EL seems to be able to have Graphic changes in t he unit to reflect the visible changes as well . . .

    I have seen only a couple of posts about the Heroes mechanism and how it might apply, but nothing about the Upgrade/Add On feature for the units of EL, which would seem to be a 'natural' to apply to a historically-based game. For one thing, it might solve a lot of the Upgrade Path/Upgrade and technology Speed problems that have plagued both Civ V and Civ VI.
     
  10. aguliondew

    aguliondew Chieftain

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    The issue I had with Endless Legends is that its a complex game, the AI is not to smart and upgrading your troop takes awhile. The lore and quest system is pretty good. I still prefer civ games over it.
     
  11. God of Kings

    God of Kings Ruler of all heads of state

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    Finding tribal villages (separate from minor nations) within unclaimed regions would be more interesting. The villagers could give the nation some interesting equipment.
     
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  12. BackseatTyrant

    BackseatTyrant Queer Anarchotranshumanist

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    It may were well look to be so, seeing how the trend in the AAA industry the past 15 years has been towards Games-As-A-Service, which could very well mean the next Civ game has no modding support, because doing so stands in conflict with streamlining it for an online multiplayer experience.
     
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  13. Lazy sweeper

    Lazy sweeper Chieftain

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    Options, exactly, this is so important... we need options, like to say allow 1UPT, 2UPT, 3,4,5,6 UPT in the menu.
    Regardless, try disable science victory, cultural victory, and the AI mechanics won't change a bit.
    There is not even aggression level.
    Mods can't work all the time, 2UPT mod isn't working for me. CIV VI needs vanilla options, not another DLC.
    Humankind first look has advanced map generation, in single tile diversity... it's like someone has been listening to civ's thread for the last two to three years...
    Canyons looks like canyons, rivers forms waterfalls!
    6-7 height parameters, mountains can have flat tops, highplains... I am amazed...

    But without a complex option panel, it will be pointless, people loves customizing its own difficulty level.
    We'll see.
     
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  14. Uberfrog

    Uberfrog Warlord

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    I’m not terribly concerned that Civ 7 will become a primarily multiplayer game, and so this sort of game-as-service approach would not really apply.

    I don’t think there’s much of a problem in Firaxis’ mind with Civ 6’s approach to modding and the Steam Workshop. While mod support (particularly DLL) is still somewhat lacking, it wouldn’t make sense for them to ditch it completely, especially given how they have continually stated the importance of modding to the franchise.
     
  15. bbbt

    bbbt Warlord

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    In theory some sort of advanced 'machine learning' AI would also likely result in a Civ 7 that was always online and potentially modless. Though that's also pretty unlikely, at least from Firaxis. Folks have suggested that sort of thing might come from a third party in the future.
     
  16. Jkchart

    Jkchart Chieftain

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    I agree with you both, absolutely. Religion should be more hands off rather than a direct tool/invention of the state and another way to conquer the world. I get very tired of the religion system as it currently stands, where some powerful nation randomly comes up with all of these theological ideas in their capital city (or because they built a stone circle lol). The religious system worked better in V where it wasn't another combat layer, but even then isn't quite accurate in how religion works.

    I was just stating how easy it is to get people mad enough about the subject. :p
     
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  17. Abaxial

    Abaxial Chieftain

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    I was thinking earlier that I'm not too worked up about Civ 7 - there is still so much to be tapped in Civ 6. As in, what would be like to play X with a map like Y?
     
  18. Republic of San Montuoso

    Republic of San Montuoso Chieftain

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    OK, time to put my 2 cents.
    I spent my entire day yesterday and today (nothing to do at work) reading this thread. And boy I knew about Humankind before (huge fan of EL) but thanks to you I learned even more.

    My opinion about it:
    I'm absolutely thrilled. Being able to play a mutable country is gorgeous. It's something I wanted since a long time. I don't really care about the "realistic historically accurate" setting. Because having Australia being the direct neighbor of Phoenicia is utterly ridiculous. So, for me, the fact that you can choose any new culture at each new era is the best idea.
    A lot of people here seems against or, at least, very dubious. But you look at it the wrong way: it's just a wrap to put an easy, recognizable name on a mechanic.

    In EL, you can choose a faction and each faction posess several distincts traits. You have also the ability to create your own faction, picking up traits from what you want. I think what Amplitude want to do with Humankind is that kind of thing: create your own culture during the ages, adapting yourself around your neighbors and your environment.

    A lot of people seems to see it as: I will be Egyptian, then Roman, then Incas, then Portuguese... It's the wrong way to see it. You better see it as: I will be able to build pyramids, then have better roads, then exploit mountains, then travels the oceans... It's better to focus on the mechanics, on the abilities you will have rather than the name. The mechanics are what's important; the rest is just wrap, design, fashion and fanciness.

    In Civ, you don't play Arabia; you play a people that know how to meddle efficiently science and religion. You don't play Canada; you play a country of north farmers that looked upon the beauty of nature and decided to exploit... hem, to conserve it. We just call them Arabia and Canada because what they are able to do are vaguely linked to stereotypes you can have about them in real life.

    It will be the same thing in HK. You won't be the Egyptians or Babylonians or Hittites; you will be your own culture, your own country with graphics and names inspired by them, that's all.

    It's a dream come true: the ability to really create the country you want... Imagine the storytelling you'll be able to do! The legends, the roleplay! It's clearly not an historical 4X game, nor it's a fantasy game: it's a realistic game who push the "what if" very far and very smartly.

    Why should I wait this long to test this! Why????
     
  19. cvb

    cvb Chieftain

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    So players, who insist on always playing the same "civ" from dawn 'til dusk, might be able to customize for every age a distinct 'package of several traits' they like to incarnate ...

    .
     
  20. Shadowhal

    Shadowhal Chieftain

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    The discount for the endless series is still on for a bit longer (12h). So, for anyone who is interest in Amplitude's take on 4x, let me throw my opinion in the ring and say that I think Endless Legend is a fantastic terrestrial 4X game.

    I love how it has a good (large, but manageable) number of systems that link together pretty well and get by without a undue amount of sub-rules and exceptions. For instance,
    • You have unstacked cities, but the rules are far fewer than the district-specific rules in Civ VI which require a lot of planning, while the EL system still allows for good thinking and choice.
    • Influence is a clever resource used for activating internal policies (the more influence you invest, the more and more powerful policies you can use), assimilating minor factors, striking deals with other factions, and espionage. Plus, it rarely occurs on natural tiles, so must be actively sought through buildings and pop allocations.
    • Luxury resources will almost always be useful, even of you have only very few or a lot of them in your territory.
    • The one army per tile system is just so much easier to handle. Since there is an added maintenance per army on the field (on top of per unit maintenance), you also have a soft natural incentive to organise your units into armies, rather than scatter them around.
    • I do genuinely like the balance of the combat system. Deep enough that you can influence the outcome, but detached enough that it won't take forever to fight things out. It also solves multi-stack combat in a reasonable fashion through a reinforcement system. Only, city sieges are fairly abstracted, sadly, but still involve strategic and tactical choices.
    • The quests are a pretty cool way of injecting story elements and narrative into a 4X game. They tell a nice story of who your faction is and what they seek
    • Factions are very diverse. One does not grow population via food, but buys them through dust (gold). Another does not produce research, but must steal techs from others. Another cannot declare war, while a further cannot enter peace, once at war. So, very different gameplay experiences - at the cost of somewhat locking you to a path early on with a particular faction.
    With the community patch, a lot of balance weaknesses have been addressed and the AI acts pretty sensible in most cases. Certainly a reasonable challenge for an occasional player like myself.

    I'd say one of the bigger remaining weakness is that I find diplomacy a bit lacking. The core options are there, but I'd want a bit more transparency why factions (dis-) like each other, a few more factors driving that, and maybe some positive pacts. It just doesn't feel quite as fleshed out as other elements. Well, yes, and the game doesn't really explain its systems terribly well. There are wikis and guides and such, but not that comprehensive tutorials and no equivalent to a civilopedia.

    Someone asked about heroes and how they get stronger. They can be assigned as either generals, governors, or spies. In each role, they will earn experience and when they gain a level, you can direct their improvement through skills. It's very RPG-like. The skills, in combination with equipment, can make a big difference to city or army performance. Again, a nice way to tie different systems together and force you to chose how you want to use your limited number of heroes.

    With that all said, man, am I looking forward to Humankind based on their previous work. No, I won't pre-order. That's not me. But I wish Amplitude all the success to create a great, fun product, however much it may compete with Civilization. And will be ready to pounce if they do.
     
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