Is it considered cheating to use GW with espionage off?

[Kawalimus]

Because what it does is puts GPP into a 'general' pool but it won't actually give you a GP. So what you can do is just let it fill up, then run the specialist of your choice and get whatever GP you want. I can't stand espionage so I turn it off. But I wonder if this is considered cheating?

 

[Aeiouv]

Well it certainly gives you an advantage if that's what it does but I wouldn't considering it cheating. Your just changing the settings much like one can always play against less aggressive civs with no barbs/war/events/whatever but wheres the fun in that?

On another note, espionage is amazing early on. -8 happiness and health can cripple cities of a civ you want to take over. Also the reconnaissance is helpful.

 

[Kawalimus]

Yeah maybe one day I will turn it back on. I just had a game recently where Sury was pestering me with spies all through the end of the game, blowing up this town and mine repeatedly and it just got so irritating I wanted to throw the computer across the room. So I just decided to turn it off for a while and found myself much happier playing the game. I always found the feature tedious to use for the player but obviously fun for the AI to pester me with. I've used it before though, just to see what my opponent's stack looks like.

 

[PibbZ]

Nothing is cheating unless you are using the World Builder in my opionion. It's just clever use of game mechanics

 

[FriendoftheDork]

Having espionage turned off will mean the AI will not waste 20% of it's taxes on it, so the game should be harder because of it.

 

[Kawalimus]

Having espionage turned off will mean the AI will not waste 20% of it's taxes on it, so the game should be harder because of it.

Which is fine with me. I'm not looking to make it easier or harder, just more fun for me. The tradeoff is they don't waste their effort on it but I don't have to worry about dealing with their spies who poison my water all the time and steal my techs.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

There is a difference between configuring game settings to make it easier and cheating. Cheating is doing something in-game that is outside the bounds of the agreed-upon rules. Gwall with no EP is no different from playing a different difficulty or selecting "always peace" other than the amount of difficulty changed.

If anything, the AI cheats too as there are lots of hidden things it does/knows that are impossible to the player and these are not known to players w/o code diving or learning the hard way. Usually humans cheat by reloading or worldbuilder.

 

[Bluto_Longneck]

I cheated in one particular game, where I was flanked by Joao and Bull.

Every turn something blew up or something was poisoned/stolen etc.

They both had decent territories and could expand to crappy sites, but I just had to check into WB, and surely enough.

Joao - 8 cities, building 4 spies and 2 already running at me.
SB- 8 cities, building 2 spies with 3 running at me.

I said: Ouch!

 

[Yared]

Well it certainly gives you an advantage if that's what it does but I wouldn't considering it cheating. Your just changing the settings much like one can always play against less aggressive civs with no barbs/war/events/whatever but wheres the fun in that?

On another note, espionage is amazing early on. -8 happiness and health can cripple cities of a civ you want to take over. Also the reconnaissance is helpful.

Wow... I've got to try out that one.

 

[karadoc]

There is a difference between configuring game settings to make it easier and cheating. Cheating is doing something in-game that is outside the bounds of the agreed-upon rules.

This.


Here's how I see it: With espionage off, the rules of the game are different, and it just so happens that these different rules allow for the new tactic you have described in the first post. It's a powerful tactic, maybe it is even unbalanced, but it's just part of the rules that you have chosen. It isn't cheating.

Incidentally, the Great Wall is very much more powerful with Raging Barbarians as well - it seems to be a bit of a problematic wonder for custom games!

 

[FriendoftheDork]

Which is fine with me. I'm not looking to make it easier or harder, just more fun for me. The tradeoff is they don't waste their effort on it but I don't have to worry about dealing with their spies who poison my water all the time and steal my techs.

Yeah. My point was, even if it may be somewhat unbalanced the rest of it makes up for it.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

This.


Here's how I see it: With espionage off, the rules of the game are different, and it just so happens that these different rules allow for the new tactic you have described in the first post. It's a powerful tactic, maybe it is even unbalanced, but it's just part of the rules that you have chosen. It isn't cheating.

Incidentally, the Great Wall is very much more powerful with Raging Barbarians as well - it seems to be a bit of a problematic wonder for custom games!

It gets a lot more leverage on larger maps and slower speeds (both increase barb numbers, but not gwall costs) as well. Even some of the traits vary in use thanks to speed, map size, or both though.

 

[PieceOfMind]

IMO NoEsp is already broken as a setting anyway. Never mind that you can get a "general" GP pool using the GW. You can do it with a simple spy specialist as well or any other great-spy wonder for that matter.

You can use courthouses to pop borders in No Espionage. It's a different game.

 

[Nilmerf]

IMO NoEsp is already broken as a setting anyway. Never mind that you can get a "general" GP pool using the GW. You can do it with a simple spy specialist as well or any other great-spy wonder for that matter.

You can use courthouses to pop borders in No Espionage. It's a different game.

Not only that but it breaks culture as well. The capital border pops at a ridiculous level with the culture from the palace. And then you add things like Jails and Security Bureaus which are like free cathedrals in every city.

 

[Kawalimus]

IMO NoEsp is already broken as a setting anyway. Never mind that you can get a "general" GP pool using the GW. You can do it with a simple spy specialist as well or any other great-spy wonder for that matter.

You can use courthouses to pop borders in No Espionage. It's a different game.

I'm an idiot. For whatever reason I never thought of this.

 

[PieceOfMind]

Not only that but it breaks culture as well. The capital border pops at a ridiculous level with the culture from the palace. And then you add things like Jails and Security Bureaus which are like free cathedrals in every city.

I know. That's why I mentioned the courthouses. Culture and great people are the two things that are the main gameplay (rule) changes. The one that many are most likely to forget is that the Legendary culture thresholds (as well as every culture level IIRC) are doubled under No Espionage. It's not documented anywhere, which is my main complaint with the NoEsp setting - No Espionage is not really a good description for the setting. It should be called "No Espionage, Abundant Culture and easy great people choosing".

 

[pollock]

Nah not real cheating. Id like to get a GE with it. I basically never ever get em. No matter how many 20% chances i put together.