Is it ever worthwhile to found an early religion?

[salty mud]

Pretty much the title. I can only think it is useful if you are going for a cultural victory. Researching mysticism and so on takes time you could be researching worker improvement technologies.

However, I have recently discovered the tactic of beelining to Monarchy and using your army to allow you to develop mega-cities early on. To get to monarchy you need these religion techs.

My early play feels a bit stunted and disjointed. I am wondering how I can improve.

 

[Bjarkov]

As a general rule, it is not worthwhile to found an early religion. The amount of work required to get other civs into your religion and make them stay there is too high, and not doing it makes your religion actively bad for you since your diplomacy gets punished.

There are exceptions. For example, playing on a very large map on marathon speed means a lot of auto-spread and opportunities for huge gold income via the great prophet building

Monarchy is a strong tech that is worth aiming for once worker techs are acquired. Priesthood unlocks Oracle which makes for some very powerful plays if done right, but that is no reason to rush for religions with your first tech choices

 

[Izuul]

On the higher difficulties you are unlikely to found any religions even going straight down the path to Monarchy due to the large discounts that the AI get on techs. That also tends to be a bad tech to bee-line unless you are in isolation or semi-isolation because the AI prioritize it, get it early, and are willing to trade it. The main reason to pursue that tech path is to the build the Oracle, but even when doing this, it's seldom a good play to use the free tech on Monarchy.

Anyway, the best religions to found if you need to do so are Confucianism (commonly from CoL Oracle) and Philosophy (GS bulb), and both can be attained pretty early in the game.

 

[Triewd]

I am quite curious about this as well.

So are we saying Buddism Hinduism and Judaism are not worth it?

 

[Lennier]

That is correct. Get worker techs first. If you want the Oracle, then tech up to Priesthood. Let the AIs found the early religions and spend their spreading them to you.

 

[Seraiel]

Apart from the example of Huge map + slow speed and apart from Cultural Victories on multi-continent maps or high speeds, going for Meditation, Polytheism or Monotheism is a distraction that's just too great, because it delays getting the most necessary Worker (and maybe also War) techs. It's also too simple to conquer a holy city from the AI, best done if waiting for as long as the AI gets a Great Prophet and builds the Shrine for oneself too.

 

[Fippy]

I once had a game in Isolation (aiming for that in settings, so i knew ) with Isabella.
With my only food being seafood, i started on workboats and researched Medi first.
I thought that's crazy on deity and it probably was, but was really fun.

Extra happy and free switch with SPI (also cheap temples so 2 happy), border pops when Bud auto spreads, more culture..it's risky but that game played out really well and different. Those games that i will remember.

 

[Kallikrates]

Even disregarding the detours I found that already on Emperor the AI is very hard to beat for the 2-3 earliest religions. (Unless one starts with mysticism and has decent commerce at the start.) This makes IMO isolated cultural victories comparably tough because only two religions (Conf + Tao) are somewhat feasible.
(On Prince/Monarch it is possible to get at least one, maybe even two of the early religions but it is not considered good play for the reasons given by others.)

But if I wanted to I very often got Conf (usually from Oracle) and/or Tao on Immortal. These are anyway on the standard liberalism beeline. But they will not really help much for "religious" game because usually the AI has spread its early religions by then and it is often better to take one of their religions than alienating them by converting to the one you founded yourself.

It seems the "religious nuts" only rarely try for Confucianism and even less for Phil/Tao. This makes sense to some extent because Theo unlock the AP which the religious AIs love to build.

 

[ChaosSlayer]

Not only I go for early religion, I also try to get as many religions as possible under control. (In my games I normally end up founding 4-5 religions).
Can you even imagine effect of having 3 religions sharing the same holy city at once? Do you have any idea how much gold a city with 3 shrine produces? Ok given I only got this lucky once, but effect was an avalanche of gold - my research slider never went below 95% in first 1/3 of the game, and after that it was at 100% and gold just kept rolling in.

Besides that the obvious reasons to get early religion are:

+1 happiness and +1 culture growth are very helpful in early game.

 

[elitetroops]

Can you even imagine effect of having 3 religions sharing the same holy city at once? Do you have any idea how much gold a city with 3 shrine produces?

On a standard sized map, not very much unless you build a lot of missionaries to spread the religion. I mean not very much compared to what you could get from 3 GM trade missions instead of 3 prophets for shrines, and putting missionary hammers, and possibly bank+WS hammers, into resource boosted wonder failgold instead, or into units and capture cities for conquest gold. Eventually the shrines would catch up, but with the earlier gain from trade missions or other more efficient GP use (and if you had chosen a wiser early research path than going for lots of religions), the game would be decided by then.

The point is, learn to use all the tricks in the book, then it's possible to keep the slider at 100% for most parts of the game without any shrines. Then you can use your Great People for more important things.

You get +1 happiness and +1 culture even if your neighbor founded the religion. And shrines can be captured after the AI has wasted resources on spreading the religions and a GP on the shrine.

 

[Bibor]

Let me illustrate why going for early religions isn't worth it. For this, I took Toku, one of the two leaders that rank at the bottom. A start not really special, but nice (settling based on river flow; didn't see stone or the corn). I Play at Emperor, so that's the game: pangaea, random leaders, no huts.

At Turn 100 (normal speed) this is where I am: 8 turns to friggin' Currency, with Construction, IW self-researched, Alpha traded for. If not for the stone (GW and 'mids) I'd have 2 more cities and a worker extra. I'm ahead of the AIs tech-wise.

How? Notice those 4 cottages between Kyoto and Osaka? These are the source of my income. I planted them really, really early. The gems were connected at around T95 and I have no other source of income. Granted, some research is coming from the Pyarmids and the Great Spy. But... I forgot to switch to Rep until like T92 :-(

Spoiler :

Now, compare this to the religious economy you mention. Even if you somehow managed to get Monotheism first, it would be around T70 or 80 that you'd get to Priesthood and start chopping The Oracle for Theocracy or Code of Laws. And that's if you beeline for it.

Add in the worker techs and all the other stuff and at this same T100 you're looking at a mess with, well, 3-4 religions founded and perhaps one shrine with, what, 4-5 gold income at best?

In this particular game, HRE is my neighbour and first target; being first to construction and playing the passive-aggressive Toku, I'll get my shrine anyway, with a stronk economy that can easily support my conquest.

 

[Bibor]

Let me illustrate why going for early religions isn't worth it. For this, I took Toku, one of the two leaders that rank at the bottom. A start not really special, but nice (settling based on river flow; didn't see stone or the corn).

At Turn 100 (normal speed) this is where I am: 8 turns to friggin' currency, with Construction already researched. If not for the stone (GW and 'mids) I'd have 2 more cities and a worker extra.

Spoiler :

Now, compare this to the religious economy you mention. Even if you somehow managed to get Monotheism first, it would be around T70 or 80 that you'd get to Priesthood and start chopping The Oracle for Theocracy or Code of Laws. And that's if you beeline for it.

My point: except for a super difficult hilly/low food start, early cottages offer a reliable, strong source of income.

The emphasis here is on early cottages. All those early turns when you just move the scout and click "end turn"... the cottages can already grow.

 

[Gr8scott]

Doing well at CIV is all about creating an early snowball (i.e. exponential growth) effect. Early worker techs help kick off a snowball effect (workers can chop more workers, settlers can build more settlers, etc). Same thing with early war techs.

Early religion techs and early religions do not produce much of an exponential growth effect. You can get an extra culture, a bit of happy and convert hammer to gold via missionaries. Not that great.

Moreover, you have made it harder for the other CIVs to found and adopt different religions (this is usually a good way to manipulate the diplomacy of the game)

So founding religions generally have high opportunity costs (missing out on exponential growth), lowish benefits, and negative direct effects (other CIVs do not found the religion, adopt said religion and become a pariah).

No thanks

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Even on larger maps, I'd generally rather put a bulb in Philosophy if my continent didn't have an AI religion I could use already. You're still getting a BCs religion, and you're getting it on a powerful individual + trade tech that opens a good civic and is on the lib path. How many do you want to put into missionaries in the interim time between one of the first 3 faiths being founded and say 1000-500 BC? Probably not a lot, that's early rush or workers/settlers/granaries/library timing. Auto spread can give an advantage to the earlier faiths but the starting missionary partially mitigates that.

Sometimes you get weird continent distributions even on standard size where you bulb philosophy and are the only one of 3 civs on your continent to found a religion because 2 civs on the other side split the rest, which you then dump on the AI. In general, though, it's easier to run an AI's religion even if you found one, though if you bulb philo fast and not all AI are in one faith you can stir the pot a bit by shipping that missionary to someone who doesn't have a faith yet.

 

[Tatran]

Going for one of the 2 earliest religions isn't option when playing with raging barbarians.
Also, with 11 AIs at Emperor, chances are close to zero to get a religion from Meditation or Polytheism.
Founding a religion from Monotheism is sometimes possible, but it's rare.

 

[ChaosSlayer]

On a standard sized map, not very much unless you build a lot of missionaries to spread the religion. I mean not very much compared to what you could get from 3 GM trade missions instead of 3 prophets for shrines, and putting missionary hammers, and possibly bank+WS hammers, into resource boosted wonder failgold instead, or into units and capture cities for conquest gold. Eventually the shrines would catch up, but with the earlier gain from trade missions or other more efficient GP use (and if you had chosen a wiser early research path than going for lots of religions), the game would be decided by then.

The point is, learn to use all the tricks in the book, then it's possible to keep the slider at 100% for most parts of the game without any shrines. Then you can use your Great People for more important things.

You get +1 happiness and +1 culture even if your neighbor founded the religion. And shrines can be captured after the AI has wasted resources on spreading the religions and a GP on the shrine.

Well I guess my approach isn't really for standard Civ
But I must say I am not playing for fastest win possible. I play Marathon games for Domination/Conquest/Space victory and I like to slowly but firmly take over the world killing off AIs as they get in a way. I am also a peaceful player - I never attack a civ unless they provoke me first. (I NEVER RUSH! ).
As surprising as it maybe be - I have made best friends with some of the more aggressive neighbors like Tokugawa and Shaka, while found out that guys like Justian and Asoka get pissed at me for no reason and come from across the world to attack.

On great persons - The way I set up my Capital I usually end up with like 5 Great Prophets I don't really need (that's AFTER using 5 prophets to establish 5 shrines and 1 for golden age). Last game I burned them on research.

And yeah, since I playing a slightly modded game - my strategy could be more effective than it is in a vanilla game.

 

[elitetroops]

Yeah, but the question here was if it is worthwhile to found an early religion. Sure you can do it and still win. On the lower levels you can also lib agriculture and still win. But that doesn't mean it's worth doing it.

 

[Seraiel]

Well I guess my approach isn't really for standard Civ
But I must say I am not playing for fastest win possible. I play Marathon games for Domination/Conquest/Space victory and I like to slowly but firmly take over the world killing off AIs as they get in a way. I am also a peaceful player - I never attack a civ unless they provoke me first. (I NEVER RUSH! ).
As surprising as it maybe be - I have made best friends with some of the more aggressive neighbors like Tokugawa and Shaka, while found out that guys like Justian and Asoka get pissed at me for no reason and come from across the world to attack.

On great persons - The way I set up my Capital I usually end up with like 5 Great Prophets I don't really need (that's AFTER using 5 prophets to establish 5 shrines and 1 for golden age). Last game I burned them on research.

And yeah, since I playing a slightly modded game - my strategy could be more effective than it is in a vanilla game.

Sry, but I didn't understand "the strategy" as you call it. What I understood, is, that you're roleplaying CIV and play a mod on top, but what is the strategy? Win later to... ???

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Yeah, but the question here was if it is worthwhile to found an early religion. Sure you can do it and still win. On the lower levels you can also lib agriculture and still win. But that doesn't mean it's worth doing it.

Over the years I've seen a few deity players opt-in on founding one of the first two religions. It's usually in situations like Fippy describes, very rare starts where the player can research them immediately on a commerce-heavy tile without trashing their worker turns too much, often assisted by starting demographic information suggesting a lack of AI competition towards that tech.

Those cases are very exceptional.

 

[Bibor]

Over the years I've seen a few deity players opt-in on founding one of the first two religions. It's usually in situations like Fippy describes, very rare starts where the player can research them immediately on a commerce-heavy tile without trashing their worker turns too much, often assisted by starting demographic information suggesting a lack of AI competition towards that tech.

Those cases are very exceptional.

On this note, I've seen a financial riverside oasis once for 3F4C. Now that's cheating