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Is it just me or are heros way way overpowered.

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Fall from Heaven' started by Xanikk999, Oct 1, 2006.

  1. Xanikk999

    Xanikk999 History junkie

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    Im suprised nobody has said this before in the forum. Almost any hero can roll over any defending units in a city for its time period.

    It makes the game a lot less fun because bambur or saverous can take out almost any city in that point in the game. I dont want to be tempted to always use the heros but i think they should be even weaker then suggested in the change log.

    Right now you really only need a one man army.
     
  2. Kael

    Kael Deity

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    From the changelog:

     
  3. Xanikk999

    Xanikk999 History junkie

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    I know i said even weaker then from the changelog. Bambur should be like 5 but get 25% bonus vs archers and saverous 6 but get +50 melee.

    I think that would be balanced. They would both be obselete by macemen tho.
     
  4. Xanikk999

    Xanikk999 History junkie

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    Hmm wait a sec, i got an idea. How about you decrease heros strength when attack cities ALONE but if with an army they get a bonus.

    This would encourage a more then one-man army but might require some sdk changes.
     
  5. Kael

    Kael Deity

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    Ah, your right. Sorry i missed that. Playtesting is going well with them at that power. But admitidly is more of a personal opinion on how powerful the hero should be.

    But I would hate to knock them again without getting some real feedback from you folks. So after 0.16 releases I'll be curious what you guys have to say about them.
     
  6. Xanikk999

    Xanikk999 History junkie

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    Yah i guess it is personal preference. But dont you think it would be neat if you could mod it so heros dont do well when they arent attacking in a stack? I think it would be more realistic and encourage better army usage if heros go with an army.

    Think of the hero leading the army. :)

    Makes more sense then him attacking alone.
     
  7. Hypnotoad

    Hypnotoad Prince

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    Playing on Immortal, I haven't found them to be that overpowered. A properly defended Hero can be the heart of an effective military compaign. But unless properly defended, provided with healers, etc., heros are far too fragile to take on an arm on their own. All it takes is a single unlucky combat and your hero will get pounced on. I try to only attack with a hero if he can't be effectively counter attacked. Even at 99% chance of success, I often will end a combat quite weakened.

    A small reduction in strength is probably in order, though.

    Heros are one of the most fun and atmospheric parts of this game. I really like them. I wouldn't want to see them get too "balanced." They are balanced by being unique and hard to get.

    The two things I would suggest are:

    1) Get the AI to use heros more carefully. I find I can often pick off enemy heros easily. The AI doesn't really know how to tap their potential.

    2) Have more interesting choices in developing heros. Heroic Strength and Twincast are so good that I basically always go straight for these. I would like some more interesting choices for character development.

    Nonetheless, one of the most flavorful and enjoyable parts of the game. I'm just playing around with Adventurers right now -- lots of fun. I'm going for one from each unit type, just 'cause.
     
  8. QES

    QES Court Jester

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    The fundamental problem with heros is risk v reward.

    Heros, as such, run the risks of being unique units. If they are killed, one will never see them again, therefore if they are not powerful enough to generally guarentee survival against a mundane unit, then they will be overly protected. Conversely, if they have the power to kill mundanes with realative ease, then their use as city-takers becomes VERY obvious. It's kind of a choice.

    We dont want heros to be relagated to all "non-city" warfare because as it is, most of the interesting combats happen around or in cities. Therefore, to nerft a Hero in that way, would reduce the entire hope of their existance.
    Also, as world units, commonly one should be rewarded for building a hero before others - though this is mitigated by the fact that each civ has its own heros, and isnt in competition to build them. However hero vs. hero this can be/is still balanced.

    The notion that the heros are singular has to be ignored, clearly there is some "elite" squad with them, lest an individual be able to capture entire massive cities by themselves.

    I assume in the future, that heros primary purposes will revolve around questing and rewards from questing. Also, perhaps the great commander (eventually) could be replaced/supplemented by heros. In this, individual heros, would either be used for quests, or for creating armies of troops to fight in a war. In this, they're more specialized. Personally, i think it'd be fun if heros were able to produce some army bonuses, as well, then the questing would be seperate, but equally important, heros would have a niche that wasnt "uber unit" and everything might fall into line.

    The problems with this are simple: At this stage in development - its not plausible, the features I described are scheduled for later phases. But, we still want to have fun with heros, so this is how they are..for now.
    -Qes
     
  9. Nimbus

    Nimbus Prince

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    If you wanted to make Heroes more central to a stack you could create a new promotion(similiar to Heroic Strength I & II) for them that would enable them(for one turn) to give their stack City Raider I and then City Raider II. This would also further diversify what promotions you take for your heroes.
     
  10. Kael

    Kael Deity

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    The AI's attack odds calculator is really bad in vanilla civ4 (and therefor 0.15). TGA's revelation of that is huge and 0.16 uses the ai calculator from warlords. I think you will find that it is significantly improved.

    Yeah a fuller promotion scheme as Bebemtos recommended would be cool to see. There won't be anything like that in 0.16, but I would expect us to continue to add nifty promotions as we go forward.
     
  11. monolith94

    monolith94 Warlord

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    I've had the AI kill my heroes before, including a loss of a fully upgraded Valin Phanuel to a particularly relentless Morgoth attack.
     
  12. Xuenay

    Xuenay Prince

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    On the topic of heroes, how does Shrine of the Champion work, exactly? I had my Saverous get killed but didn't see an option to build the Shrine anywhere.
     
  13. Chandrasekhar

    Chandrasekhar Determined

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    It has to be the Civ-specific hero, not a religious one.
     
  14. naf4ever

    naf4ever Dread Lord

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    Ive mentioned this before, but heroes or national units are not overpowered,, if anything they are pathetically weak.

    Not even a 40 str mithril golem could ever take one of my cities. Why? Because the mithril golem is just one unit. All i have to do is summon 2 imps (or any other disposable unit) every turn which I can do indefinitely and the golem will never break through because he only has one attack.

    Because of this limitation and the fact that they can't be everywhere at once i think hero units need to be a little overpowered strength wise otherwise they're really not that great.
     
  15. Sureshot

    Sureshot Goddess

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    i feel they dont need more strength, what they need is more survivability

    items could help with this (like healing potions, so after a battle they can heal themselves a bit) and other such things
     
  16. Hypnotoad

    Hypnotoad Prince

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    Playing as Cassiel I just found the island that has the Red Dragon on it. c. 260 or so. My Branning (first Adventurer) is a Dragon Slayer with 200 EXP and Orthus' axe. I take him away from the war he is part of and send him over the Island in a Caravel (only holds one unit). He kills the Dragon at 98% chance and then takes out the rest of the untis two per turn (with the axe). I never seiged the city or anything... Overpowered -- maybe. Super awesome -- definitely.
     
  17. Sarisin

    Sarisin Deity

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    Even though Perpentach has become my favorite civ to play with that Insanity Effect, the downside is having Loki as a hero. I know somebody will disagree, but except for map exploration I think building him is a waste. Even exploration with Loki is a tedious exercise when you have raging barbs as he runs away every turn.

    Also, if you are playing with raging barbs you can forget about sending your hero (Savernous, Kithra Kyriel, etc.) out solo as they will dispatch him before you know it.

    Personally, playing the raging barb option most of the time, I love having a powerful hero unit to help defend my city (usually I have a total of one :) ). Making the hero less powerful is not necessary IMO.
     
  18. Chandrasekhar

    Chandrasekhar Determined

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    Loki will be able to flip new cities to the Balseraphs singlehandedly in .016, right?
     
  19. formless blob

    formless blob Chieftain

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    I have noticed that sometimes summoned units can defend, other times they can not. What are the rules for that?

    On the subject of heroes, I agree with the sentiment of the original poster. Heroes should be kept within reasonable limits. There are many games (Age of Wonders, to name but one) Where you can basically disregard strategy, and just go rampaging with your heroes, when they become high enough level.
     

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