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Is it just me or is monument start crazy now?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by Lieu, Mar 1, 2011.

  1. Lieu

    Lieu Chieftain

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    Subject in title. (Edit: Monument first to be clear) So, the patch is out and I've just been messing around with starts with the new tradition/liberty trees and analysing these builds to hell (I am compelled to form mathematical models of my builds for their optimalness - I hate going on gut feeling). Anyway, the more I look at using culture as "production" with the liberty tree the stronger such a start appears.

    I can get details out soon, but is anyone else seeing this? 109 hammer settler for free on 2nd policy; 2nd policy is (25+45) culture; 40 hammer monument built in 10 turns while city grows in 8 turns on a 2f tile; free settler comes out on turn 26 if I remember, plus city growth, plus 16 more turns of production on something else.

    Going for the free settler with no culture bonus besides liberty opener results in a turn 48 free settler. The difference there is 22 turns of city output, happiness permitting. That's really, really hard to recover with traditional builds.
     
  2. kamex

    kamex Emperor

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    This is just one of any powerful openings using the new trees.

    You can also go Liberty - Citizenship - Meritocracy for an early GE, which you can use to rush Stonehenge, Oracle or GL.

    Also, Tradition gives you an extra +3 cultrure in the capital, and reduced culture tile costs, and also opens up Legalism, which can save you loads of hammers, particularly if you get free Temples and not Monuments.

    Problem with Collective Rule is that it only leads to Republic, which is now no doubt the weakest policy in the Liberty Tree.

    A temptation I've found is trying to get Representation 'before' REX, to try and benefit from the reduced culture costs of future polices.

    For the best early culture experience, try France.

    My game went Tradition, Liberty, Citizenship, Representation, Collective Rule, Legalism, Landed Elite, Monarchy,

    I have EVERY tile in my section of the map by 600AD or so...
     
  3. joncnunn

    joncnunn Senior Java Wizard Moderator

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    Legalism yields Monuments if you've not built it yet.
    Running an experiment now to see what happens if you already have one.

    Ran it: If you already have a Monument in your capital, you don't get a Temple. So you don't seem to get anything from this civic in this case.

     
  4. ras9929

    ras9929 Chieftain

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    Looks like it builds temples, but only 2.

    I did same build as second poster except swapped monarchy for meritocracy
     
  5. MadDjinn

    MadDjinn Deity

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    For Legalism:

    Your cap doesn't seem to count in the 'first four'.

    So you'd have to go get 4 more cities, with monuments, then come back for temples. not the greatest plan.
     
  6. joncnunn

    joncnunn Senior Java Wizard Moderator

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    The capital counts in the first four if there's not a monument there. (free Monument appeared in capital upon choosing Legalism )

    But no Temple or anything else appeared in my capital when I already had a Monument present.

     
  7. magnus333

    magnus333 Warlord

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    Legalism will do the following:
    1) Place a culture building in up to 4 cities immediately (that you have the tech for but have not built in the city)
    2) If you have less than 4 cities, upon founding a new city it will instantly start with a monument.

    Q) What happens if you have 1 city with a monument and 2 cities with no monument AND you have temples researched?
    A) You will receive a temple in the one city with a monument, monuments in the 2 cities with nothing and another monument in the 4th city when you found it later.

    Q) What if you do not have the tech for temples and you already have a monument?
    A) Nothing, the policy is wasted in that city.
     
  8. Martin Alvito

    Martin Alvito Real men play SMAC

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    You can make a strong argument for Monument over Worker now if you're France or if you hit an early Culture ruin.

    Other things that are strong now: Hills capitals, and Grasslands. Cows are everywhere.
     
  9. joncnunn

    joncnunn Senior Java Wizard Moderator

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    You don't even have to be France or hit a culture ruin for that.

    If going the National College first, then building Monument in capital first is powerful when combined with in order:

    Tradition (+3 in capital.) Capital is now 6 CPT (Palace + Monument is 3)
    Liberty (+1 in all cities). Includes capital, so is now earning 7 CPT
    The free worker policy
    Both liberty policies that follow the free worker in either order
    The free settler policy

    Just wait to get Legalism until you have the tech for Temples if your capital already has a Monument.

    And actually if you haven't started construction of a Monument yet when you get a cultural ruin, you may want to skip it and just beeline social policies to Legalism to get them for free.

     
  10. Lieu

    Lieu Chieftain

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    On the contrary, non-french civs have the most to gain from that first monument. With no monument, going straight for the free settler takes 48 turns (my turn counts might be off by one) ticking away at 1 culture then 2. With a monument first it becomes turn 26. Pretty huge gain at little cost. France can do it on turn 26 without even bothering with the monument. With one, they can do it in 17. Still good for them, but for the non-french a monument looks like a real build-breaker.
     
  11. MadDjinn

    MadDjinn Deity

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    or.. go tradition and get the free monument from Legalism anyways if you get the culture from ruins.

    Sets you up for Monarchy and Landed Elite early.
     
  12. Bandobras Took

    Bandobras Took Emperor

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    It isn't crazy, it's just people are unused to have so many options with the early social policies. :)
     
  13. Martin Alvito

    Martin Alvito Real men play SMAC

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    You can't afford to sit for thirty turns with no Worker. But the French (or a civ that gets Tradition via ruins) can easily time things such that a Worker arrives on the scene at about the same time one could be built using Tradition -> Liberty -> Citizenship pathway.

    As I see it, there are a number of questions on the table right now:

    - When to Granary? It's a beast in the right start.
    - When to Monument/go Legalism?
    - Cultural ally first?
    - Purchase a building instead of pursuing a CS?

    In any event, it seems pretty clear that going vertical in the capital at the beginning of the game is currently the way to go. The only possible exception is France, who can potentially increase their SP acquisition rate by going horizontal.
     
  14. formivore

    formivore Chieftain

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    Yeah hitting an early culture ruin seems a bit too strong now.
     
  15. MadDjinn

    MadDjinn Deity

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    I've been messing around with this start a bit.

    I would not go 'monument first', but scout then monument. The scout will up the odds of getting a culture ruin.

    IF you get the culture ruin, then yes, this can be a decent start.

    Teching: Pottery->Writing
    SP: Liberty->Collective Rule

    get the free worker within a turn or so of getting writing. That's nice and fast; not to mention good timing for an NC first start.

    Then, next policy should come up around the time you finish the NC. grab the free settler and look for the Iron. (while teching towards IW)

    hit an RA somewhere in there (earlier the better) to use on Metal Casting, then next SP is Meritocracy for the GS and Steel. Provided you're selling resources, upgrades shouldn't be a big issue.

    note: In my few test runs so far with this strat, it seems that the AI has shied away from Philosophy and rarely do I see GL or SH taken by the AI early. They're all spamming settlers!
     
  16. Lieu

    Lieu Chieftain

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    You can sit around without a worker no problem. In fact, before the patch, a settler was way better in terms of food and production yield return from investment. In most situations, anyway. Settler speed is hugely undervalued it looks like. Sure, everyone knows more cities is very strong, but just 5 settler turns is pretty big.

    I think this pro-worker line of thinking stems from the settler vs worker discussion never being prevalent enough nor going deep enough analytically. By worker vs settler I mean: you paid X food/hammers, how much food/hammers do you get back? (for purposes of growing as efficiently as possible) It matters a lot because you re-invest the food/hammers you get back. It snowballs. Gaining 1 production at the start of the game might mean 100 production later on.

    Anyway, a worker on improvements will give a city +1 every 6 turns or so, up to city size. A city growing into food resources will gain +1 for each resource, remember 2 food cost per tile. A settler creating a city next to a food resource currently gets a net +4 between food and production when next to, say, cows. Now, it used to be really silly because you could build a settler, harvest a hill and have +4 production. Then use that to build a worker. 18 turns. At most, a worker could have completed 3 improvements. So 18 turns later the 2nd city produces its own worker, is producing +4 a turn - the same as the gain of a size 2 capitol growing to 3, with 3 extra improvements on those resources (!)

    Basically, the settler city makes its own worker before the worker in the other example can even make enough improvements to catch up to the size 1 city! That includes the capitol growth when building a worker. Also, the 2nd city could shift between 4 production using a hill or 3f+2p with a cow or something. The capitol was "stuck" with its probably food-heavy improvements. Plus you used to get the gold on the 2nd city. I must mention it's not a full 70 hammers behind though. The worker first build is +19 hammers from the settler taking slightly longer. The capitol smooth growth also gives +18 over the time duration.

    As long as you had the happiness you could do this. Obviously you need workers for that, but 5 happiness is enough for a settler first. You could even continue this by settling on luxuries, though situational. Also you can get workers through stealing or buying.

    Wow, this post got longer than I thought.

    Anyway, now with the -1p on cities and +25% settler cost it shifts the balance a lot. But mainly, there is now a path to get a really cheap, fast settler out while growing your capitol. This is why I believe liberty is so strong. Blazing fast settler, no stop in capitol growth and only a 10 turn delayed worker. My analysing hat is still firmly on but wow, I get some crazy numbers from liberty now.
     
  17. hellboy909

    hellboy909 Chieftain

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    Don't forget this:

    •Doubled culture from kills for Aztecs

    I know who I'm playing as for my first post-patch game.
     
  18. Martin Alvito

    Martin Alvito Real men play SMAC

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    This one is real simple. You have luxuries. You must improve these luxuries and sell them to the AI. The sooner you do this, the sooner the deal cancels so you can sell them again.

    After getting an exploration force out to snag ruins, there isn't anything you can possibly build that competes with a Worker's return on investment for Deity play. Anything more than one in the early game is overkill, so steal it if you can. But you simply have to get one on the ground quickly.

    I'm sort of enjoying having Rifles running around at 750 BC, personally. I don't think that the Aztecs got enough of a buff to compete, since everyone is getting huge quantities of free early game Culture now.
     
  19. ShredZ

    ShredZ Warlord

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    If you use Askia or whatever his name is, with Liberty you will get the mud pyramids +5 culture as your 'first 4 cultural buildings free' which is a nice boost.
     
  20. formivore

    formivore Chieftain

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    The opportunity cost of an early Citizenship is too high. That policy is better spent getting a free settler timed for when the NC completes. Just build a worker the traditional way or steal it if you can.

    Get early culture to get the ball rolling from:
    Ruin
    Monument before NC if you stole an early worker or have excellent production
    250 gold dumped into a CS
     

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