Is it just me or is monument start crazy now?

[Martin Alvito]

The opportunity cost of an early Citizenship is too high.

I'm not yet totally convinced of that, but I understand what you're getting at. Slowing progress towards Landed Elite or Collective Rule (depending on your strategy) isn't a good thing.

Throwing gold at city-states seems to be pretty strong. In fact, it's strong enough that Siam is better in the early game than France unless you go for a classic France REX.

 

[kamex]

Legalism yields Monuments if you've not built it yet.
Running an experiment now to see what happens if you already have one.

Ran it: If you already have a Monument in your capital, you don't get a Temple. So you don't seem to get anything from this civic in this case.

Thats because you hadn't unlocked Philosophy.

You must have the next tier of culture building available to build when you choose the policy.

 

[Tabarnak]

You can't afford to sit for thirty turns with no Worker. But the French (or a civ that gets Tradition via ruins) can easily time things such that a Worker arrives on the scene at about the same time one could be built using Tradition -> Liberty -> Citizenship pathway.

As I see it, there are a number of questions on the table right now:

- When to Granary? It's a beast in the right start.
- When to Monument/go Legalism?
- Cultural ally first?
- Purchase a building instead of pursuing a CS?

In any event, it seems pretty clear that going vertical in the capital at the beginning of the game is currently the way to go. The only possible exception is France, who can potentially increase their SP acquisition rate by going horizontal.

Granary after a worker(which is built after scout maybe) seem a good idea. They are cheaper, and Legalism gives you free monuments. AH-->Pottery seem a good tech start. I can build settlers fast enough under Tradition with a buffed capital working mines, and let Landed Elite helping other cities to grow very fast. I'm happier in the long run because Tradition helps me permanently.

 

[Bibor]

Thats because you hadn't unlocked Philosophy.

You must have the next tier of culture building available to build when you choose the policy.

Just confirmed.
Legalism gave me a free temple in my second city (rush-bough a monument just to test).
However, the capital didn't receive a temple (already had a monument).

So I guess its worth delaying this policy until you have monuments in 4 non-capital cities, especially as Askia (That's free 20 per turn from a policy for Askia).

 

[Leoben]

If I puppet a city, will it get one of the free culture buildings? I guess not?

 

[joncnunn]

The capital is one of the 4 cities.

This time I choose some other policies first so by the time I chose Legalism (from the Oracle.) I had the tech for Burial Tombs (playing Egypt) and so it got added to my capital.
My other city (via the free settler policy) got a Monument.

Another person above says if you don't have 4 cities at the time you'll be granted monuments as you build those cities; but my own current game hasn't gotten that far yet.

Edit: I can now confirm that if you choose Legalism before you have 4 cities that the moment you build a new city, it will get a free Monument in it.

Just confirmed.
Legalism gave me a free temple in my second city (rush-bough a monument just to test).
However, the capital didn't receive a temple (already had a monument).

So I guess its worth delaying this policy until you have monuments in 4 non-capital cities, especially as Askia (That's free 20 per turn from a policy for Askia).

 

[Lieu]

This one is real simple. You have luxuries. You must improve these luxuries and sell them to the AI. The sooner you do this, the sooner the deal cancels so you can sell them again.

After getting an exploration force out to snag ruins, there isn't anything you can possibly build that competes with a Worker's return on investment for Deity play. Anything more than one in the early game is overkill, so steal it if you can. But you simply have to get one on the ground quickly.

I do play on deity by the way. The key things I'd like to point out are that luxuries:

1. Give gold (almost 10 gpt equivalent, but better because it's upfront)

2. Come from improvements and city placements. Those come from workers and settlers, respectively.

2 means you have hammers converted into luxuries through workers, but you also get hammers converted into more hammers through expansion, then those "more" hammers converted into more luxuries. By not spending to get the first luxory or two fast, you can get more luxories overall a bit later on. Actually the "cost" is the number of turns the luxory or two was delayed, and what that extra gold would get you. Highly timing dependent.

It all depends on timings You need luxories for multiple cities and you absolutely need the sell gold from them. Timings and empire growth curve.

Maps are different though, having different optimal builds. Though, if it was before the patch I would have suggested trying out settler before worker on a non-rich capitol, then trying out worker before settler and comparing the saves. I did this several times and settler first was quantitatively better. In situations where you could snag other luxories easily it was much better and in situations where the capitol had a strong first 4-5 tiles or so worker ended up ahead when you were able to use the luxory gold efficiently for expansion.

Now I would never recommend it though But now we have even stronger starts thanks to the new trees. Settlers still have a huge ROI though.

 

[Ciek]

I recently finished a cultural game with Siam, and I can confirm that puppeted cities do not get the free cultural building, they have to be ones you built, much to my disappointment.
Edit: I didn't test out whether Annexing them would do it, but I didn't figure it would.

 

[Martin Alvito]

2 means you have hammers converted into luxuries through workers, but you also get hammers converted into more hammers through expansion, then those "more" hammers converted into more luxuries. By not spending to get the first luxory or two fast, you can get more luxories overall a bit later on.

This is essentially Paeanblack's thinking behind pure ICS. Significant tradeoffs have been introduced since release:

- It's no longer possible to have a policy that reduces Settler build costs right off the bat
- Early Settler builds mean that you either have to plow the cash proceeds back into Libraries or forego the National College
- Settlers are marginally more expensive

Maps are different though, having different optimal builds. Though, if it was before the patch I would have suggested trying out settler before worker on a non-rich capitol, then trying out worker before settler and comparing the saves.

This is the usual argument of the NC second crowd. The problem with the argument is that you end up measurably better on and , but you put yourself in an ugly position that comes back to bite you later on.

Again, the Worker is essential. It's best to steal them with Scouts if possible, then make peace for cheap (or free if a CS), but if you can't manage that then you have to bite the bullet and build one.

 

[MadDjinn]

This is essentially Paeanblack's thinking behind pure ICS. Significant tradeoffs have been introduced since release:

- It's no longer possible to have a policy that reduces Settler build costs right off the bat
- Early Settler builds mean that you either have to plow the cash proceeds back into Libraries or forego the National College
- Settlers are marginally more expensive



This is the usual argument of the NC second crowd. The problem with the argument is that you end up measurably better on and , but you put yourself in an ugly position that comes back to bite you later on.

Again, the Worker is essential. It's best to steal them with Scouts if possible, then make peace for cheap (or free if a CS), but if you can't manage that then you have to bite the bullet and build one.

After playing a bit, I don't think NC 2nd is doable without cash to buy the libraries. New cities won't have any real production for a long time. So by the time you can buy/make libraries in 3-4 cities (if that's the expansion plan pre-NC) then say goodbye to the NC and the game.

 

[Lieu]

The last 2 comments I absolutely agree with the fact that you simply can't get NC early while rapid expanding. Your early science position is weaker. As for that costing the game? I don't see how that's the case at all unless you miss-spend your hammers and gold.

I would argue your science position doesn't come back to bite you later; it hurts you imminently to the degree you can't get the particular early techs you need. Later is when your science is in a really good position and when techs are much more expensive. That's the crux of whether or not to get NC first: The actual science you get from it (during the period the competing build does not have NC) is a tiny fraction of later tech costs. Therefore, the difference of value in early NC vs no early NC reaches only insofar as the advantages early techs give you at that point in the game.

Of course, early techs are absolutely crucial, depending on the situation. The point is, if you rapid expand and can reach the techs that are important to you at that time, you are in a powerful position. Though if you needed that beeline and couldn't pull the resources in then, well yes, goodbye to the game on deity

 

[Rittmeyer]

The last 2 comments I absolutely agree with the fact that you simply can't get NC early while rapid expanding. Your early science position is weaker. As for that costing the game? I don't see how that's the case at all unless you miss-spend your hammers and gold.

I would argue your science position doesn't come back to bite you later; it hurts you imminently to the degree you can't get the particular early techs you need. Later is when your science is in a really good position and when techs are much more expensive. That's the crux of whether or not to get NC first: The actual science you get from it (during the period the competing build does not have NC) is a tiny fraction of later tech costs. Therefore, the difference of value in early NC vs no early NC reaches only insofar as the advantages early techs give you at that point in the game.

Of course, early techs are absolutely crucial, depending on the situation. The point is, if you rapid expand and can reach the techs that are important to you at that time, you are in a powerful position. Though if you needed that beeline and couldn't pull the resources in then, well yes, goodbye to the game on deity

problem is that in CIV 5 the best strategy seens to be cleaning away cheap techs with your beakers per turn in order to get the expansive ones out of RA's and GS's. The patch should just make it even more the case, since they'll be now more expansive.

 

[Martin Alvito]

I would argue your science position doesn't come back to bite you later; it hurts you imminently to the degree you can't get the particular early techs you need.

Not really. Very few early techs in the tree are meaningful. Optimal play involves executing slingshots to reach the game changers. Steel, Chivalry, Rifling and Education are the techs that matter. Other than Construction and the luxury techs, you can live without most of the early stuff. (AH is very strong but not always essential.) Even military techs are optional in corner starts if you play the diplomacy game well.

If you slow down your rate of technology acquisition, then either you're collapsing your conquest window or you're giving the AI extra turns to kill you or execute a win condition. Either way, the results of your decision to delay pushing technology aren't felt until later.

It's possible that in a sufficiently strong start (with enough AI players) you could simply substitute additional Research Agreements for the National College early on. However, I don't experience a lot of games where I'm able to steal the two or three extra Workers I would need to actually improve an aggressive REX start and raise that kind of cash. With the changes to the base tile, additional cities are pretty bad right now unless you can improve tile yields with Workers.

Even then, you're banking on AIs having the right combination of having money and not having the luxuries you have. That seems to be a lot more likely post-patch than it was before (eg: the Babylonian Rifle Rush game), but it's a gamble. Getting a quick Landed Elite was surprisingly bad in that game, so I don't think that El Dorado had much impact on it.

problem is that in CIV 5 the best strategy seens to be cleaning away cheap techs with your beakers per turn in order to get the expansive ones out of RA's and GS's. The patch should just make it even more the case, since they'll be now more expansive.

This.

 

[MadDjinn]

Even then, you're banking on AIs having the right combination of having money and not having the luxuries you have. That seems to be a lot more likely post-patch than it was before (eg: the Babylonian Rifle Rush game), but it's a gamble. Getting a quick Landed Elite was surprisingly bad in that game, so I don't think that El Dorado had much impact on it.

Skilldorado does still have an effect. If you get it, you can buy a settler with the 500g, and still have the 380g saved/lux sold for a library. (you may have to give up an early CS or RA for it though) Thereby getting a 2 city NC going. But you need skilldorado. (and well, the free settler from the Liberty tree)

back on topic:

As per NC vs. wide... not on deity with AIs around. They're spamming and will out tech you very quickly if you lack the NC. It'll look close early-mid game (they seem to slow it down a little now) but once they've run out of space, they go 'tall' due to their happiness bonus. It's not that their numbers will be better (literacy rate) but that they'll have all the new toys and just blast past you. (or through you) The NC might 'seem' to only help early, but later game, the +50% beakers goes nicely with the Universities +50% to make a nice cap science beast.

 

[Martin Alvito]

Skilldorado does still have an effect. If you get it, you can buy a settler with the 500g, and still have the 380g saved/lux sold for a library. (you may have to give up an early CS or RA for it though) Thereby getting a 2 city NC going. But you need skilldorado. (and well, the free settler from the Liberty tree)

That might have been a smarter play, although IIRC the surrounding territory was a big flat ball of suck. But since I usually discard El Dorado games for the purposes of posting, I had forgotten that buying a Settler was considered the best response.

As per NC vs. wide... not on deity with AIs around. They're spamming and will out tech you very quickly if you lack the NC.

Here's the prospective argument. Suppose you're pounding out 30 for 30 turns with the NC from turns 40-70, and you're setting up the Education slingshot. If you build Settlers instead of the NC, stunting your growth plus lacking the NC will cause that to crash down to an average of 14 per turn or so.

However, if you can add enough extra luxuries, you can simply pick up the lost productivity through further RAs. Typically you'd sign three RAs on an Education beeline. Two extra luxuries for resale would let you sign two more RAs with funds to spare (assuming the AIs have the cash), which would actually improve your tech position when all of the RAs come in. You'd be able to get Theology and Compass with RAs and work on other techs after you finish blocking.

The ugly catch is that you have to secure those luxuries without provoking a DoW, or getting the extra luxuries is counterproductive. Pulling that off can be hard, but I suppose that it may be possible on some maps.

 

[Lieu]

Not really. Very few early techs in the tree are meaningful. Optimal play involves executing slingshots to reach the game changers. Steel, Chivalry, Rifling and Education are the techs that matter. Other than Construction and the luxury techs, you can live without most of the early stuff. (AH is very strong but not always essential.) Even military techs are optional in corner starts if you play the diplomacy game well.

If you slow down your rate of technology acquisition, then either you're collapsing your conquest window or you're giving the AI extra turns to kill you or execute a win condition. Either way, the results of your decision to delay pushing technology aren't felt until later.

I should clarify what I meant by early techs. I don't mean the early part of the tree in general, I mean the first techs you actually want - the ones you first go for - whether it be ironworking, steel or the right luxury techs, etc. What's important to you early game. If you can get what you need on-time, it doesn't matter if you used the NC to get there or not.

NC is strong because it does a good job of reaching an important tech, then you do something decisive. I think we all know that. You have to "do" something on high difficulties. Their bonuses are too much to sit there being passive. You need a winning play, and sooner rather than later. So if you do some quick expanding and hard development and you have nothing lined up, then a deity AI just stomps you. Had my share of that before I got used to the time frames you have to work with. Just an example: today trying out the new patch some more I did a 4-city, turn 45 ironworking set-up. 4th city settled by the iron when it was visible. Seemed pretty reasonable to do; used 2 luxuries and sold 1 spare by that point. Had a couple warriors ready and 2 workers, though didn't find a worker to steal.

It could have turned into a lot of things after that 3 city start, just haven't tried enough games yet. Steel is definitely doable quickly. Horses are an interesting prospect given the reliability. Not sure yet, but I think you could get 5 cities and a capitol horsemen pump or something. The turn timer will tell...

 

[MadDjinn]

That might have been a smarter play, although IIRC the surrounding territory was a big flat ball of suck. But since I usually discard El Dorado games for the purposes of posting, I had forgotten that buying a Settler was considered the best response.



Here's the prospective argument. Suppose you're pounding out 30 for 30 turns with the NC from turns 40-70, and you're setting up the Education slingshot. If you build Settlers instead of the NC, stunting your growth plus lacking the NC will cause that to crash down to an average of 14 per turn or so.

However, if you can add enough extra luxuries, you can simply pick up the lost productivity through further RAs. Typically you'd sign three RAs on an Education beeline. Two extra luxuries for resale would let you sign two more RAs with funds to spare (assuming the AIs have the cash), which would actually improve your tech position when all of the RAs come in. You'd be able to get Theology and Compass with RAs and work on other techs after you finish blocking.

The ugly catch is that you have to secure those luxuries without provoking a DoW, or getting the extra luxuries is counterproductive. Pulling that off can be hard, but I suppose that it may be possible on some maps.

to make it worthwhile, you'd need some workers. That's a bit harder to do and stay on track.

Given an alternate path of going NC first and grabbing the free settler then spamming them out while making workers.

I've found I had plenty of cash waiting for the AIs to be able to afford the RAs. (or get Philosophy first)

 

[Martin Alvito]

to make it worthwhile, you'd need some workers. That's a bit harder to do and stay on track.

If that's your plan, you should go double or triple Scout and steal some Workers from a civ, in addition to the CS steal.

 

[Treso]

I think you beeline Landed Elite with your Monument you get a very strong start.

 

[Bibor]

NC discussion again yay!

Aaaaand how about... skipping NC at start, building cities, picking meritocracy as 3rd policy and planting that 6 academy from the scientist you chose on a nice grassland? Granted, it doesn't give the 50% buff, but its good enough, right?