Is it just me...

[pokeravi]

or does Portugal become way too powerful, even past its historical golden age? Granted, in some games the English are usually at the top of the scoreboard and in others the US. But in every single game I've played with this mod Portugal is almost always in the top 3 from the Renaissance age to the end of the game. Heck a lot of the time it's #1. Is this going to be fixed? Usually Portugal is somehow able to maintain a colonial empire that encompasses both South America and South Africa.

Speaking of its colonies, I've noticed than in almost every single game Portugal's colonial ambitions prevent other countries from settling in their historical areas. Portugal always conquers Mexico and makes Montezuma his vassal. It settles the Americas to such an extent that I rarely if ever see Spain settle in South America or Central America. Heck Portugal event founded Buenos Aires once and even settled in Canada.

Also, another region I noticed Portugal extending out of its historical bounds is in South Africa. It settles so many cities in South Africa that I never see the British settle there. Usually the Congo become the vassals of Portugal as a result.

Are there any plans to nerf Portugal? I definitely don't think it should be at the top of the scoreboard past the Industrial Age especially if Germany or France are lower in score.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

I've never seen Portugal top the scoreboard. Top 4 or 5, yes, but never No.1. The Dutch & the English both have better late game power than Portugal. Portugal is extremely survivable though, because

(1) Relatively Competent AI: Its AI leaders are not stupidly belligerent; have reasonable Vassalization thresholds which let them piggyback on powerful civs like HRE or France; and they know how to take full advantage of Resettlement;

(2) Moors: With the addition of Moors, Spain can rarely conquer Portugal now, whereas France & Germany are too far away, and have much friendlier attitudes (partly due to Portuguese AI, partly due to lack of border conflict).

^ Factor (1) has always been present, so Portugal has always been extremely survivable in DoC. Factor (2) came with the addition of the Moors, and made Portugal even stronger. Portugal can often take Cordoba before Spain; even if it can't, Spanish Cordoba is in no position to Culture crush Portugal like Spanish Cadiz used to.

AI Portugal's geopolitics is kind of like AI England, except it doesn't have to deal with American Independence.

 

[Power_of_Beer]

They just have pretty good tech modifiers, because they usually are with only two cities for some time. Once Brazil is fully developed, Portugal is usually in the top 3 in techs. Plus, Brazil supports some high pop cities.

 

[Swarbs]

The only times I've seen Portugal get really strong are when Spain gets beaten down or killed off by the Moors and / or France. Perhaps the solution is to beef Spain up a bit, particularly in the early period, as Spain rarely ends up with an empire similar in size to the one it had in RL.

Imo, Spain should be the one getting conquerors against Aztecs and Incas 90% of the time, and a human England / France / Portugal should really have to rush to beat Spain to this. At the moment Spain rarely seems to get the conquerors, and a human player can beat them to it with very little effort, even on Emperor.

 

[Akbarthegreat]

Perhaps the solution is to beef Spain up a bit, particularly in the early period, as Spain rarely ends up with an empire similar in size to the one it had in RL.

Imo, Spain should be the one getting conquerors against Aztecs and Incas 90% of the time, and a human England / France / Portugal should really have to rush to beat Spain to this. At the moment Spain rarely seems to get the conquerors, and a human player can beat them to it with very little effort, even on Emperor.

 

[Leoreth]

I agree with this observation. The reason is mainly that there are several mechanics in place to model the rise of Portugal (colonies in Brazil, Africa and Asia), but nothing really opposes them afterwards. In reality, they quickly lost many of their colonies to the Dutch.

 

[strijder20]

Maybe you could make France and Spain more aggressive against Portugal in the seventeenth-eighteenth century.

 

[Lone Wolf]

I rarely see a strong Portugal. However, I play 1.9.

 

[archcapitalist]

i see a strong portugal a lot, usually top 3. i also see spain take lisbon quite a bit, but this doesnt always slow portugal down. ive seen portuguese govt in exile in the top three quite a bit.

 

[Daedwartin]

The only times I've seen Portugal get really strong are when Spain gets beaten down or killed off by the Moors and / or France. Perhaps the solution is to beef Spain up a bit, particularly in the early period, as Spain rarely ends up with an empire similar in size to the one it had in RL.

Imo, Spain should be the one getting conquerors against Aztecs and Incas 90% of the time, and a human England / France / Portugal should really have to rush to beat Spain to this. At the moment Spain rarely seems to get the conquerors, and a human player can beat them to it with very little effort, even on Emperor.

It also was an empire that managed to crash bug time. It caused a depression, and three centuries the house fell down. First was the US, which while not being Spanish territory, generated unrest. Then came 1808, when the first colonial wars for independence occurred in their empire, only to be coupled with being forced into becoming a puppet state. THEN came the Spanish-American War. America had one of the weakest militaries...the US was winning so badly that one battle they decided they had time to break off for lunch...Spain lost pretty much every battle, and pretty much most of their empire. They did the worst job in this regard.

 

[MKPhoenix]

I've not often seen a strong Portugal tbh, however, in my most recent Prussia save I did see them get extremely strong in terms of score even though they were bereft of Lisbon. It was a weird game though, I mopped up all of Europe except for the Iberian Peninsula and the second most powerful civ was a uber-exteded Iran.

 

[ace99]

I've rarely ever seen Portugal achieve much of anything. It's France that dominates in my games since there's no one to stop them anymore. Also England and China are usually up there often with Tamils.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

I've rarely ever seen Portugal achieve much of anything. It's France that dominates in my games since there's no one to stop them anymore. Also England and China are usually up there often with Tamils.

A lot of the more recent 1.10 screenshots that have been popping up actually seem to indicate otherwise.
France seems to be occupied by foreign powers quite frequently from many of them.
China isn't dead a lot, but it's always small and insignificant now, typically vassalized to the Mongols,
which I suspect is the case because of their recent Gunpowder buff.
This is just from observation; as I haven't started on 1.10 yet.
England is still a mixed bag, but it usually leans on the stronger side now.
Last I checked from 1.9 though, I agree with your assessment on the Tamils.

 

[MKPhoenix]

^ Oh yeah I agree with ace, England are pretty much always up there and the Tamils (often the Mughals for me too actually) usually do pretty well scorewise. I can't say I have ever seen China doing much at all though, they always collapse to the Mongols and they never do much but vassalise to them upon respawn. Which is a point, in my games the Mongol empire is usually top 3 almost always top 5 and absolutely massive, China never have a chance.

 

[HardRocker]

I agree with OP, I almost always see a very strong Portugal, and when I don't play a colonial power I almost always see a Portuguese Mexico and occasionally Portuguese Inca.

The most probable solution would be to buff Spain, because if you knock Portugal down then they will probably have almost no power the whole game. Perhaps increase European aggressiveness towards Portugal in general?

 

[iOnlySignIn]

I see France consistently getting dismembered by Spain & HRE in the 600AD Scenario, but instead often dominating in the 3000BC Scenario (faster access to a better Rome, more flipped Barb units).

I think what we should do is:

- Change Spain's AI so that it's more likely to target Portugal instead of France, HRE, or (I'm serious) Russia.

- Slightly reduce Portugal's overall tech rate, but instead give them better starting buildings (Market, Lighthouse, Grocer) in their capital, similar to the Netherlands.

- Give Spain slightly better starting Techs. Meditation? Calendar?

- Give France better unit production modifiers, especially after Renaissance.

- The Dutch (AI at least) should get double amount of Trading Company conquerors, possibly as part of their UP. Their current conquerors represent the Dutch East India Company. There should be a second, smaller group (2~3 stacks?) of conquerors vs. Portuguese & Spanish colonies in Africa & Brazil to represent the Dutch West India Company.

 

[pokeravi]

I agree with OP, I almost always see a very strong Portugal, and when I don't play a colonial power I almost always see a Portuguese Mexico and occasionally Portuguese Inca.

The most probable solution would be to buff Spain, because if you knock Portugal down then they will probably have almost no power the whole game. Perhaps increase European aggressiveness towards Portugal in general?

Yeah that would work. We could also give Portugal a similar starting situation as the Netherlands. I also see France collapsing a lot as others have indicated so maybe they should get a buff.

 

[Pavel Chichikov]

I think it's more a matter of the European AI generally being quite passive overseas.
I usually play Russia or Classical/Middle-East Civ's so it doesn't affect my games much.

 

[Leoreth]

As always, IOSI's suggestions seem like the way to go to me.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Spanish AI needs to place a high priority on Compass and exploration. Change Isabella 10 flavour from Religion to Science, that will make her prefer Optics to Divine Right or stuff like that.

There should be a second, smaller group (2~3 stacks?) of conquerors vs. Portuguese & Spanish colonies in Africa & Brazil to represent the Dutch West India Company.

That'll make the human player avoid Africa and Brazil. Why settle if AI auto-spawning stacks will take it away?