1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Is it me or is this game overly complex?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by contempted, Jan 27, 2020.

  1. contempted

    contempted Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2010
    Messages:
    89
    I’m an old civ 4 player. I just started playing with the tutorial for civ 6. Is it me or is this game way too complex? I think about the Chang from 3 to 4, I remember it being almost seamless. To me this game takes too long to play, too long to lear, and is extremely difficult to learn. I can’t even figure out what the buttons telling your units what do are. I’m sure if you’re reading this, you understand how to play it, but is this game way to complex? Thanks.
     
  2. Depravo

    Depravo Siring Bastards

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2005
    Messages:
    1,253
    Location:
    England
    Are you using the expansions? That would be pretty daunting.

    However, if you can get your head around 4 you'll come to understand 6 without much ado.
     
  3. criZp

    criZp Emperor

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2013
    Messages:
    1,603
    Location:
    Nidaros, Norway
    just click around and you will get it after having played some games.
     
    AsH2 likes this.
  4. Sostratus

    Sostratus Emperor

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2017
    Messages:
    1,817
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Minnesota, USA
    If you didn't play civ 5 then you ultimately have a double transition - a lot of the differences between 4 and 6 were present in 5.
    But Civ6 isn't really that complex, it's still the same civ game, even though visually it looks very different from 4.
    (edit: I forgot to include a couple civ5 things)
    Things added in Civ5 that are in civ6
    Hex Tiles

    Why have 4 edges when you can have 6?! Honestly besides being able to move differently, this is just a visual thing.
    1 Unit per Tile
    Perhaps the most impactful change from 4->5, the idea was to finally get rid of the "doomstacks" of past civs and mechanics like collateral damage.
    Combat
    The combat did simultaneously change to an HP based system instead of the "two unit enter, one unit leaves" of stacks. Its important to note that part of this is that an empire generally has fewer units fielded than before, and units are more durable than before to reflect that.
    Ranged Units
    While civ4 had some ranged bombardment capability, it mostly focused on first strikes and defender vs attacker bonuses. Now, some units like archers can indirectly attack another tile, and won't take damage from doing so, and importantly, this can kill units. Cities themselves have a ranged attack, and unlike civ4 have inherent defensive ability, so you don't need to garrison them all constantly.
    Trade Routes:
    Rather than the commerce generating system in civ4, trade routes are discrete trader units moving around on the map. They can generate gold for you if sent to foreign cities, or they can make food and production if sent domestically.
    Tourism & Great Works
    This was a big change, but one that can be ignored for the most part as a new player. The idea that one can generate great people to create these items isn't that crazy - after all,
    Religion
    Just like civ4, great prophets can found religions. But the system was greatly deepened and expanded. First, the "Faith" resource was added as religious currency. Second, religions are now very customized instead of all being carbon copies like civ4. (To quote the civ4 game manual on that topic, "we're game designers, not theologians.") All civs can have their own pantheon, effectively a small bonus that usually relates to nearby terrain or resources. Civs earning a Great Prophet can found a religion, which itself has beliefs the player can choose, including a "founder" belief that only effects the creator, and follower beliefs that affect any city with the religion. As usual, religion is spread by missionaries.
    Buy most things with Gold
    No longer restricted to just Universal Suffrage, in civ5 the commerce yield has been removed and now science and gold are independently generated. With gold still being used to pay for things in your empire, having a surplus can now be used to instantly purchase a unit or building.
    Strategic Resources
    Strategic resources now accumulate per turn based on how many sources you have of them. They are consumed by military units and some buildings. Instead of being able to build unlimited tanks if you had access like civ4, now you need 1 unit of oil to fuel 1 tank. Fairly logical, although it does mean you have to watch the map a little.
    Global Happiness
    Instead of happiness and health per city, happiness is in some part a global number that represents the net of your citizens consumption vs the luxury resources and entertainment you provide them.
    Unique Civ bonuses
    Instead of having leader traits, civs have unique abilities in addition to their unique unit and building. This is a different approach to civ design that most people feel has made the game more re-playable.
    City States
    City States are minor, one city entities that major civs can interact with for various benefits. Namely, "CS" are divided into a few groups like cultural, mercantile, maritime, etc, each providing an economic benefit for good relations. You can capture them, but there may be diplomatic consequences!

    Further things civ6 added
    Units

    Workers used to build a farm or mine every few turns. Now they can build instantly, but only have a limited number of charges. They still do the same thing, though- improve your tiles.
    Military units are the same as always, although they changed combat from being a ratio of strengths to a difference of strengths. So instead of seeing +25% damage, you'll see +5 strength. Any time two units differ by X points of strength, the outcome is the same no matter if they are 20 vs 25 or 100 vs 105. Furthermore, military units can eventually merge to become more powerful. Two copies of a unique - like a pikeman- can merge to become a Pikeman Corps, while 3 can form a Pikeman Army. This helps players with a big military concentrate power into one spot.
    Civics Tree & Policy Cards
    Representing a civilization's societal and cultural growth has always been hard. In civ4, you unlocked civics over time to help form a government. In civ5, you put culture into "social policy" trees which were fixed, but had more choices. In civ6, the tech tree has been split so that things like gunpowder and radio are science based technologies and cultural things like feudalism and now culture based "civics." It's a second tech tree that uses culture instead of science.
    To represent your government, the player now has policy cards that they can choose to slot. This system is a hybrid of civ4 and civ5 - there are many options, but you can change them relatively freely. As you progress, there are increasingly advanced tiers of government that allow you to slot more policy cards at once.
    Even more unique civs
    Building on civ5's development, every civilization has a unique ability, and each leader has a unique ability too. Some civs have more than one leader, and Eleanor of Aquitane is a leader who can be used in two different civs!
    In general, the civs are even more differentiated than they were before.
    City states also gained unique bonuses they grant to whoever has the best relationship with them. For example, zanzibar grants copies of unique luxury resources.
    Wonders on Tiles
    Wonders are now built on tiles themselves. Cities still build them, but you must have a valid place to put them - pyramids in the desert, for example.
    Districts
    The crown jewel of civ6, districts are essentially extending the idea of putting wonders on map tile to city buildings. We have always had city buildings that group naturally: The barracks, armory, and military academy; the monument, theater, and broadcast tower; the workshop, factory, and power plant. What districts do is essentially take those groupings of buildings and give them a special tile to build them in. So instead of building your workshop and factory in the city center, a city will build an industrial zone, and then the workshop will be built there. But why do this? Well...
    Adjacencies
    Part of the recurring theme of tying more things to the map is the idea of Adjacency Bonuses. Both Districts and Improvements can have them. For example, where civ4 has farms getting more food from irrigation and eventually universally at biology, in civ6 farms get bonus food for being near other farms at various points in the game. As an example, a late game, fully mechanized farm farm will get +1 food for each farm next to it. If you build a triangle of 3 farms, then each farm would give +1 food by itself, and +2 food for being next to two farms, for a total of +3 food each.
    Districts really flesh out the system. Most districts you might associate with a yield - science, culture, faith, gold, production- have adjacency bonuses. For example, a Commercial Hub (where you put banks and markets) gets extra gold if it's next to a river or harbor. A campus (where you put libraries and universities) gets extra science for being near mountains. Often, a good district location provides a bigger bonus than many of its buildings! This gameplay feature creates a sort of city planning puzzle that can feel daunting at first, but is easy to become proficient in.

    ~~~~~~
    And that's about 15 years of civ development. Yes, there are other systems like governors and loyalty, and natural disasters, but the core gameplay differences is captured above. It's really not that different - you still build cities, improve tiles, and train units. And you still put your neighbors head on a spike when needed.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2020
    AlanH11, AsH2, Pure24 and 9 others like this.
  5. Krajzen

    Krajzen Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2013
    Messages:
    2,638
    Location:
    Poland
    There are several problems with civ6 which may cause it (my opinion only)
    - 1UPT movement and combat (same as civ5) means A LOT MORE time is needed from the player just moving his armies around, painfully across difficult terrain everywhere
    - it also means AI turns processing is longer, especially when combined with dramatic graphics quality increase (and jump from civ4 to civ6 is crazy in this regard)
    - the map is really cluttered with a lot of mess when compared with civ4 and even civ5: resources, all city structures now covering map tiles (absent from civ5), 1UPT resulting in a huge part of map covered by any decent army, religious units spam (absent from civ5), natural wonders, city states...
    - my personal criticism of civ6: many games are designed "early to learn hard to master" or "hard to learn and hard to master". Civ6 has stupid condition "hard to learn easy to master". It has a metric ton of mechanics, currencies, points, bonuses, modifiers, minigames and so on, many of them abstract and unintuitive (goddamn world congress...), but once you understand them you will devastate AI without extreme difficulty levels.
     
    AsH2 and Ron West like this.
  6. mdl5000

    mdl5000 Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2012
    Messages:
    254
    it feels more complicated that 5 and 4 but I don't think it really is. I don't think you have to keep track of any more information than you do in those games.

    for example, instead of local happiness, you have "amenities" which to me is something a hotel would have and not a city. but I guess there was a push for new-sounding things.
    instead of civics you have "cards" and "governors" which offer very small benefits in dribs and drabs to give you the illusion you're making big progress.
    admittedly, religion is a major change but only because it was so shallow in 4. as well as trade routes. gone are corporations, of course, which I never remembered using and most players didn't seem to care about.
     
    Elhoim likes this.
  7. Sostratus

    Sostratus Emperor

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2017
    Messages:
    1,817
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Minnesota, USA
  8. Fluphen Azine

    Fluphen Azine What is Fluphen Azine?

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2013
    Messages:
    1,302
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    I played 3, 4, 5 and 6 with plenty of hours on each.
    I find Civ VI to be the easiest and I think you'll see that as you get some time in.

    One thing I am convinced of is that settings makes a huge difference in your game.
    If I play Deity Single Player and make everything Standard with Low Sea Level I find the game to be longer or more difficult.
    If I make a few changes like Deity, New World, Wet, Standard Map, Low Sea and 7 AI's I find the game to be much faster or easier.
    It seems that the more production heavy land you have the easier this game is.

    This seems to hold true when you compare the Quick Speed Players to the Marathon Players.
    After that you can start to see a difference between players who implement a bunch of rules and those who don't
    Peacemonger vs Warmonger is another interesting comparison.

    Lastly, it will make a major difference when you play an OP Civ compared to the Lower Tier Civs.

    Personally, in my games, I have been playing nice and usually wait for Bombers.
    Of course you have to claim enough land to get Oil and Aluminum which could mean Earlier War.
    Even though the game is longer for me I find Bombers to be unstoppable against Deity AI.
    Watch out for a sneaky AI Religious Victory!
    Sometimes, it seems the AI, can get a Perfect Religious Storm.
     
    AsH2 likes this.
  9. nzcamel

    nzcamel Nahtanoj the Magnificent

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2006
    Messages:
    2,768
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Christchurch, New Zealand
    Civ 4 was quite a bit more complex than Civ 3 in my humble opinion. I wonder if your memories are slipping...? :p
    The only way that Civ 6 could be too complex is where the AI has no chance of using a mechanic appropriately. Civ 5 was a step down from Civ 4 in complexity and that lead to much boredom for me.
     
  10. Xur

    Xur Prince

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2016
    Messages:
    401
    The game is an illusion of choice bundled up with a bad UI. If I want to queue up 3 armies for production, then the UI closes every time I select what to build... it even closes the submenu for armies. Everything takes forever because you have to click a billion times. It’s tedious. Add that to multiple useless interuptions by the AI to state a silly fact - something you can only click OK to.

    Sorry for the rant.... just played the game again after a long break. I’d rather play civ1...
     
    AsH2, Elhoim, Krajzen and 1 other person like this.
  11. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2011
    Messages:
    10,867
    There is quite a few mechanics yes, quite a bit to learn. The GUI is a bit of a fail but too late for such a big change.
    I find it is more complex but the reason is not the amount of mechanics, it is the fact that choices are not so clear cut and therefore takes more thought.
    The turns do take longer than IV after T100 and there is quite a bit of wrist action due to stack limits.
     
  12. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2006
    Messages:
    11,204
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    Civ4 seemed more complex to me, at least the advanced concepts like using specialists to generate great people. Maybe not complex, but I never bothered to learn it. It seemed like needless micromanagement. I say that the specialist management in Civ4 is as complex as anything in Civ6.
     
  13. agonistes

    agonistes wants his subs under ice!

    Joined:
    May 30, 2007
    Messages:
    2,332
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Vermont
    Dribs and drabs? We aren't playing the same game.
     
    lotrmith and Victoria like this.
  14. dagriggstar

    dagriggstar Prince

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2006
    Messages:
    580
    Location:
    Adelaide, Australia
    I do sometimes think about if I were to design say, civ 7, what would I remove from civ 6. In a way, the more things you can think of the more the overly complicated you probably think a version of civ is. I do think that a key reason there are less and less scenarios being developed by the community over time is because the game got progressively more and more complicated.

    Also we are fanatics here. Have you ever tried to sit down with someone with no prior knowledge of any civ and tried to teach them how to play ? In my experience people get overwhelmed by all the choices that are possible, all the things to think about. Something as "basic" as housing has such a dramatic impact on city placement for instance.
     
  15. Gilgameshuggah

    Gilgameshuggah Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2020
    Messages:
    39
    Gender:
    Male
    When Civ VI came out, I had a feeling that it wasn't such a big step from V. However, if one has skipped V and moves directly into fully expanded VI, there is a lot of new stuff.

    I would just start by playing easy difficulty and trying to achieve a science (space race) victory. You see a lot of stuff on your way and maybe get some ideas of what you would like to focus on next. Ignore religion, spies, museums, don't pay too much attention to eurekas and inspirations. Don't start with too special civ (Maori, Mali etc). This game seems confusing at first but most of the time you only mind some of the things. The longer you play, the more this game feels like just surviving while preparing to play that one trick that your specific civ/leader allows. Too often you effectively "win" the game very early and after that you just have to play it to the end. There is really no such thing as playing losing wars or losing cities.
     
    Depravo and CPWimmer like this.
  16. UWHabs

    UWHabs Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2008
    Messages:
    4,162
    Location:
    Toronto
    Yeah, I've been playing civ for every iteration for 25 years, so I've grown with the game. Someone jumping in now, it would be hard. There's so many things to worry about, and especially when you add in all the government bonuses, governors, envoys, etc... And now gathering storm you add in all these volcanoes and hurricanes and floods, and more stuff like dams and now aqueducts have 2 or 3 things, and campuses getting bonuses from geotherms, reefs, mountains, and jungles all in different ratios, and it's a whole mishmash of trying to optimize. Even as someone who's played a lot, it takes me like 5 minutes to place a campus sometimes "okay, this spot has 2 mountains, but that one has 2 jungles and a geothermal. But I'm probably going to plow one of those jungles later, so that will be one less. Although I can get 2, maybe 3 districts around it later, so maybe that's a better bonus. Although hmm, it's on a floodplain, so am I going to district the floodplain and need a dam, or should I hope that it floods and let that feed my empire?"
     
    AsH2 and Depravo like this.
  17. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2011
    Messages:
    10,867
    I saw a 5 year old playing it on ‘their’ IPad just now (5!), seemed to be loving it.
    Maybe we are over thinking this.
    Can you pick up the game and play it on settler and have a good time not knowing the rules?
     
    WillowBrook, MrRadar and lotrmith like this.
  18. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2006
    Messages:
    11,204
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    Yes. And this is the good thing about this game. Things like adjacency micromanaging mentioned above need not apply on lower levels or even Prince difficulty. Just building the district is all you need to do, even 0 adjacency will win you the game.
     
    lotrmith likes this.
  19. CPWimmer

    CPWimmer King

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2016
    Messages:
    834
    Gender:
    Male
    Aside from the great post by @Sostratus, I think this one is the best at summing up my recommendation.

    Yes, the jump form Civ 4 to 6 is pretty significant. There is a lot to work through, but a lot of it is unnecessary to enjoy (and win) the game at lower difficulty levels. Give yourself time to go from a player learning the game to an experienced Civ'er by skipping a lot of the extra stuff as mentioned above and just get a feel for the basics of the game.

    I would recommend starting on one of the easiest two levels with a simple vanilla Civ (Rome is a common "starter" favorite) on a Pangaea map with 1 or 2 less civs than standard. Then go for a basic science win (or domination depending on your play style and if you get bored in the mid game, and are way ahead in tech). I would spend the time over the course of that first game or two learning, but not trying to optimize, district adjacency, governments/policies and how the eurekas and inspirations work.

    There are a lot of different opinions on how "best" to play the game. You probably have some ideas already, based on your Civ 4 experience, on what style you like. My advice is just to let it come naturally. Don't force yourself to play at a difficulty level that you aren't ready for, and the various game mechanics will come more naturally to you over time.
     
    Bagfran likes this.
  20. Loerwyn

    Loerwyn Warlord

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2013
    Messages:
    210
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    England
    I'm closing in on 300hrs and I'm still constantly learning, adapting and growing in how I play the game. I have about 125 in V and when I go back to that (not often, admittedly) it's very much the same - constantly learning and adapting. Civ IV, to me, is a very different beast and I don't really enjoy it after playing so much V, BE and VI.

    The thing is you need to approach it differently, and I would very much recommend you put it on the standard ruleset - even go as far as disabling all content from the first expansion onwards until you find yourself more comfortable with it. I've played since release so the new mechanics have all been gradually implemented for me, but I can easily imagine that a new player jumping in with R&F+GS would be overwhelmed.
     

Share This Page