1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Is it still possible to peacemonger in this game ?

Discussion in 'Strategy Section' started by tongfar, Mar 31, 2020.

  1. tongfar

    tongfar Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2015
    Messages:
    22
    Hello I've been playing this mod for years now, however after a long pause I found myself unable to peacemong like I used to do (maintaining a strong military and quietly spamming gp on my own).
    I usually play on king, sometimes emperor, but even on lower difficulty the AI seems much more aggresive than it was a year ago.
    So my questions are:
    How do you peacemonger in this game ?
    Which civ and strat do you employ to maintain peaceful relation with your neighbour ?
     
  2. Cokolwiek

    Cokolwiek Warlord

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2019
    Messages:
    194
    Gender:
    Male
    Generally it is but not to ridiculous degree of vanilla or some of betas that had bugged, passive AI. And sometimes near constant war cannot be avoided by later eras. I am kinda happy that the mod now introduces some sense and realism into tradition few cities play. You cannot expect to be basically a cultural city-state and be treated by warmongers or even opportunistic progress AIs as anything else as 15 wonders for a cost of taking one city. Wonder-whoring and spamming GP can hardly be called quiet activities. When playing progress you really should have ten or twelve cities to utilize your tree, but then you have more territory, supply, production and gold, so defending yourself should be much more manageable, so I will focus on tradition.

    Which strategy do I employ to maintain peaceful relations? Getting bombers and nukes as soon as possible to protect my cities when carpets of land and naval units arrive. They will peace out eventually. In the late game you cannot stay peaceful for long when you approach winning and grabbed one third of all wonders.
    Early in the game, strategic placement of secondary cities is the most important thing, they need to guard the way to the capital (which will be producing 80% of your yields). Assessing and then utilizing your territory becomes your primary objective to ensure survival. When warmongers are nearby, and you have little lakes, mountains and jungles to block access to your capital and minimize number of tiles from which your cities could be hit, no wonder is as important as the Great Wall. Use terrain to have as short and as deep front line as it possible and shuffle units. Prioritize ranged units, depending on terrain with logistics or plus one range. You can be fine without the Wall, but it seems that your are having a hard time, so I encourage you to reevaluate it, if you tend to disregard bottom of the tech tree, as many peaceful players do. The same with the Brandenburg Gate for military supply.
    When it comes to diplomacy. When you border warmonger, forget it. When you border others try to not piss them off by rivaling for the same city-states. Sending trade routes to them can be helpful, but it is a gamble, as you may lose your trade units in case of DoW. Generally cunning when comes DoFs and denouncements to make your enemies hate each other and war themselves, not trying to maintain good relations with everyone should be the goal. If one possible enemy asks you to go to war with the other, do it. You may gain a temporary friend, instead of having two enemies.
    Another thing: If you do not share a border with a warmonger and when his influence is only local (limited to conquering one or two other AIs, though even with global ones you should consider it) and you share some enemies, it is worth aligning with him, even if you nominally play peaceful. Some (not all) warmongers make great friends (it is hard-coded in their flavor, Napoleon or Montezuma do not, Genghis Khan does, just like Shaka and Harald). Here are flavors from vanilla, they should be largely up to date. Your cooperation should last longer than with the others, as you will probably be warmonger's only friend. And you have to assess how other relations will be affected. Sometimes cooperation with global warmonger is extremely beneficial and even let's you eliminate or neutralize contenders to cultural or scientific victory with his hands. Sometimes, especially if he is loosing against some coalition, it can put you on the same boat of hatred and denouncement and wars as him and sank you even further.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2020
    cammcken likes this.
  3. crdvis16

    crdvis16 Emperor

    Joined:
    May 2, 2013
    Messages:
    1,072
    There are probably some situations where avoiding war is just not possible. If you're alone on a continent with an aggressive civ who just got his UU he might just want to DoW you no matter what. In that case you just defend yourself until you get peace if you want to keep being peaceful.

    However, in more normal circumstances where you have a few neighbors and a dynamic diplomatic situation there are ways to largely avoid wars of consequence. I say 'wars of consequence' because being peaceful may require being OK with DoWing or being DoW'd by far away/weak enemies in order to maintain friendships and avoid wars with more serious threats.

    This requires "reading the room" and can be very complicated. Cokolwiek pointed out a few of these considerations already. I'll create a scenario and explore how one might approach being a peacemonger in that situation:

    You're Gandhi on a 5 civ continent and your goal is to win a peaceful culture victory. Your nearby neighbors are Mongolia, Austria, and Japan with Brazil on the far side of the continent.

    My approach for the above might be to try my best to befriend Mongolia- he's typically loyal as a friend and could be a good bludgeon to hurt Austria/Brazil who can be very threatening late game if they are left alone too much. Mongolia is also just scary to have as an enemy if you're trying to be small/peaceful. Japan is a notorious backstabber so relying on him as a friend could be dangerous- I would probably assume he would attack me at some point. I would be frenemies with Brazil and Austria- I would be friendly toward them unless denouncing/DoWing them would strengthen my friendship with Mongolia.

    Ideally, Mongolia would not found his own religion and I would do my best to spread my religion to him for the positive modifier. I would send at least one trade route his way, would avoid forward settling him, would gift him gold/resources to maintain positive trade modifiers, etc. If he denounced someone I'd probably follow suit and join wars with him as requested (maybe only engage in the war a token amount). I would make sure to stay near my unit cap with modern units and not delay military techs very long (it's very easy to fall into the trap of ignoring the bottom of the tech tree when you're a peaceful player).

    I'd also avoid going overboard with CS alliances or building wonders I don't really need. Both of those are greedy traps when trying to be peaceful. If you act like a runaway who can only be stopped by war then don't be surprised when everyone declares war.

    If a Brazilian or Austrian friendship fell in my lap I might pursue it. Maybe one of them doesn't found a religion and I'm able to convert them and build good relations via trade. However, if Mongolia turns on either one I'd probably throw them under the bus to stay on Mongolia's good side. Especially Brazil since he's farther away and DoWing him likely wouldn't require actual action or danger to my trade routes.

    Japan I would just be wary of and never leave my border with him undefended.

    Honestly, I think the peaceful playstyle can be really fun. Instead of war you focus on the relationships between civs to navigate your way. I think sometimes peaceful players try to just be hermits without playing the diplomacy game and then get upset when the AI doesn't leave them alone.
     
    vyyt, Legen, Delvemor and 1 other person like this.
  4. tongfar

    tongfar Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2015
    Messages:
    22
    Thanks a lot for these answer I'm a bit more enlightened on what I was doing wrong !

    "I think sometimes peaceful players try to just be hermits without playing the diplomacy game and then get upset when the AI doesn't leave them alone."

    Yeah that's me to a T x), and I usually end up quitting or going full warmonger to vassalise everyone on my continent x).
     
    vyyt likes this.
  5. Thibix Magnus

    Thibix Magnus Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 19, 2019
    Messages:
    48
    yeah sometimes the international community makes you feel more of a global threat when building wonders or protecting small countries, than when slaughtering the entire world.
     
  6. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    6,158
    To me their are 3 general states:

    1) Offensive war. You are attempting to attack other players.
    2) Defensive war. You are holding in a stable position against aggressive players.
    3) True Peace: You have garnered friendships and a true lack of aggression.

    1 and 2 are mostly viable (barring some of the city CS concerns I've voiced in the main threads that I think will get addressed). Currently, number 3 really isn't if your winning. The AI is geared to hate the winners and to try and stop them. So any friendships you generate into the mid game will ultimately unravel by the end game.

    So you can stay defensive to minimize the amount of war considerations, but you always have to be prepared for it.
     
  7. Thibix Magnus

    Thibix Magnus Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 19, 2019
    Messages:
    48
    something I wonder about higher difficulties: is the AI coded to hate the winner whoever it is, or only if the winner is the human player? e.g. your last post austria vs korea :)
     
  8. zeofig

    zeofig Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2016
    Messages:
    72
    Possible? Yes. Optimal? Pretty much never.
     
  9. azum4roll

    azum4roll King

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2018
    Messages:
    621
    Gender:
    Male
    It's not that difficult to hold the line against an aggressor on land. A naval invasion, however, I have no idea.
     

Share This Page