Is it worthwhile to found a religion?

[Primacide]

Founding a religion tends to be a priority in many people's game. Most players persue enough faith to found in the same vein that they have an eye toward the NC in the early game. In other words, you aren't necessarily running straight at it, but you have worked faith generation into your early game and are aggressive enough to found.

As I have progressed through the difficulty levels, I have discovered that founding and maintaining a religion is harder to do and yields diminishing returns. Perhaps it's not surprising that on higher levels, it becomes one more luxury you can't afford (a la wonders) as you run to plastics as fast as you possibly can. However, I have found that when I play on easier levels, I continue to neglect founding a religion and I'm not sure my game suffers at all. Using controlled open borders agreements, I am able to nab the religion that has the most happiness available, or buildings, or culture... Since I don't care about maintaining a vast spread, I don't compete with the other civs and thus don't generate the hate that accompanies spreading religion.

In essence, I'm beginning to feel that the religion mechanic may be most advantageous when you don't found. This allows you to prioritize other buildings and resources that will bring victory. Religious tenets are not game deciding, so much so that in games where I fight protracted battles of conversion, I'm often left feeling like, "Well I managed to convert the world, but it's turn 250 and I don't feel any better off!" I think I most often fall for this because the developers made the religious system very fun to play. It is an opportunity to directly compete with the AI, unit for unit, that doesn't involve open war. Setting aside the fun gameplay aspect, do you feel it is truly worth the resources to found? If so, how do you directly use religion to influence your victory?

 

[Dushku]

With all due respect, I think you're asking the wrong question. You can't found a religion without a prophet, which you cannot get without faith. So first you have to ask is it worth it to accumulate faith. The resounding answer is YES! Now whether that faith generation leads to a religion, you only have so much control over that. Even if it doesn't, it can lead to a pantheon, and faith that you can use to buy buildings from other religions and great people later on.

So at the very least, you should at least build one Shrine (unless you're Ethiopia or there's a faith wonder nearby). From what I've read from Deity players, they tend to say opening with Scout, Scout, Shrine, Settlers is optimal. If you're playing Liberty, it's a good idea to build a Monument before the Shrine.

In my current game, I'm playing Liberty aimed at domination. Going dom from the start, skipping religion seemed viable enough. However, I had some desert nearby, with two settle spots, so I built the Shrine anyways. That one Shrine has led to a founded religion and a couple Missionaries by around turn 100. Now I'm ready to enhance the religion and start spamming Pagodas. Which will increase happiness, culture, and faith, as well as the religion founding increasing gold. All that from one little Shrine. Not every game is going to be a Desert Folklore game, but it's why I built the Shrine when otherwise I might not have.

 

[KmDubya]

Trying to convert the World is a bad idea, the AI has a real hard on for spreading their religion and they get big discounts on buying missionaries.

Getting your own religion and having a good faith production makes for an easier victory once you can faith buy great people.

In the case of having a big faith generating pantheon like Desert Folklore or Stone Circles and wanting to keep other religions away from those cities just make an inquisitor and keep him parked in the city. Don't use him, just keep him there forever.

 

[Browd]

You don't need "your" religion in order to faith-buy Great Persons. In fact, you don't ever need to found a religion to buy Great Persons with faith; all you need is "a" religion -- any religion -- in one of your cities.

 

[sunbeam]

I'm not a very good player. I spam wonders and I like it. I watch videos of people playing on youtube and it is tradition, then some filler depending on what you like of Forbidden Palace/Big Ben/Uffizi/Louvre/Statue etc, then Rationalism (cue Jan Brady "Rationalism, Rationalism, Rationalism").

But so far I've played with religion a fair amount because I really like Byzantium (for flavor purposes, not mechanics) and the Celts.

It's not that useful even with Byzantium. So far I have found the following to be useful:

1) Being able to buy Great Engineers in Industrial Era, occasionally a great scientist (see I play different from you guys). This is the key to late game wonder spamming. I never hard build wonders past the first ones actually.

2) The money from planting great prophets (it is in the piety tree, the one that gives cities with temples the gold boost).

3) Some happiness from buildings.

And that's it. If I weren't wonder spamming, all that could be done better with other things. The gold pales (even if you take the discount on prophet generation and plant them all) to trade routes and the normal gold generation.

There are some things like buying units with faith that sound useful. But they are so expensive when your faith generation is so poor that it isn't useful. And later on that kind of thing doesn't matter at all.

I've tried the sacred sites thing, but the Internet and the other tourism things dwarf that too it seems. I mean you really don't notice the tourism thing creeping up a lot till the Internet anyway so why bother? A civ with chateaus or that polynesia feature could do it better anyway.

Maybe there are some niche games. I've seen references to someone doing a very early cultural victory with sacred sites. Seems like you would have to have perfect conditions to do it.

So in essence if it isn't that useful to me on lower difficulty, I can't imagine it being that useful on deity where all of you play.

So my experience is religion is good for 1) Buying great engineers (heck you can do it without focusing on religion, that just makes it easier to generate faith), and 2) Money. Maybe culture with sacred sites.

Go domination and it won't matter at all. And heck I actively avoid Rationalism as a policy (and Korea as a civ) because the idea of Patronage, Commerce, or the Exploration tree are a lot more interesting to me than the Rationalism features.

Though I know I would get soundly beaten if I played on deity or a multiplayer game. But I don't plan to do either.

Wanted to add that Great Mosque is the only faith building you can't build if you don't take Piety. You can really only get one of Hagia Sophia, Borobudur, or Great Mosque anyway, so you don't lose much. And the 2 extra faith per city with that one piety thing (+1 faith from shrines and temples) is small potatoes compared to planting prophets.

Oh yeah, and I don't bother trying to convert any cities (even my own after I put my mosques/pagodas/cathedrals/monasteries in). If someone converts my cities cool, I might get a building I didn't have or Jesuit education. There may be approaches you can use with some of the faith features (like the one that gives faith for followers outside of your cities). But they seem like corner cases hard to pull off. I've been in games where Arabia or the Celts spam missionaries and prophets everywhere. Doesn't seem that useful to fight that fight in addition to whatever you are trying to do in general.

 

[Primacide]

I really appreciate the thoughtful responses. I'm truly on the fence about this one. By way of clarification, I am specifically asking about founding and maintaining a religion, not faith generation per se. I think a decent faith per turn to buy great people is a goal for most people at the end of the game. However, I am beginning to wonder what leads to optimal play?

@dushku: good point about early faith buildings. I suppose the temptation would be to say, "if I'm not founding, why bother with early faith buildings?" There is a hidden opportunity cost there if you forsake even the possibility of a pantheon.

@sunbeam: not all of us play on deity all the time. I go there when I feel like getting my face pounded in. I play on immortal for a challenge and emperor when I'm in the mood for some wonder spamming. It sounds like you are tempted by the religion mechanic in the same way I am. I know I don't NEED the pagodas, but it's just so much fun. It's also a great feeling when you manage to obliterate your neighbors religion completely. A true muhaha moment.

 

[HeliosDisciple]

Maybe there are some niche games. I've seen references to someone doing a very early cultural victory with sacred sites. Seems like you would have to have perfect conditions to do it.

Byzantium is the only civ that can really do Sacred Sites. Snag three religious buildings and start spamming cities, you'll win before the internet is a thing. Hell, you can snag two religious buildings and still have a shot since you get the extra belief to fill in any gaps.

If you go Sacred Sites, you have to commit fully, but you get monstrous faith per turn. I had a game where Boudicca swiped two religious buildings for hers, so I took Holy Warriors and drowned her in free units.

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

I got cultural victory on turn 246 that game, and I'm not a Good player either.

 

[Sclb]

Remember that Byzantium got nothing to help found religion, and on higher difficulties, you won't even found one unless you happen to start on good dirt such as desert. Even if you can found, getting 3 religious buildings is extremely difficult. Might as well play a neutral civ if you can't found as Byzantium. On my current game as Byzantium on deity, I consistently found 4th or 5th despite founding a desert capital on turn 3. I also restarted the game 3 times to get petra, finally got it on turn 75.

 

[GenuineRisk]

I doubt 9 cities is enough to win a SS CV on Emperor, let alone Deity. I've only seen 2-3 Deity SS CVs and none of them were with Byzantium. The T192 one in the HoF by glory7 was done by an outstanding player with the best civ in the game (Poland), Mt. Kailash in range of the capital and space to found 22 cities.

 

[HeliosDisciple]

Who's talking about Deity? Nothing works on Deity except Tradition-Rationalism or exploits, no fun allowed.

 

[GenuineRisk]

My point was that Byzantium is not the "only civ that can really do Sacred Sites", not that Sacred Sites doesn't work on Deity.

 

[Dushku]

Byzantium is the only civ that can really do Sacred Sites.

Pshaw! Behold a t120 SS CV without Byzantium!

 

[Sclb]

Who's talking about Deity? Nothing works on Deity except Tradition-Rationalism or exploits, no fun allowed.

On non deity, anything works, so there's nothing to discuss.

But yes, Byzantium is actually pretty bad for any strategy involving heavy use of religion, due to no bonus to help speed up founding a religion, and no faith bonus either. It is therefore one of the weaker civ. Sacred Sites simply requires playing as wide as possible while generating good amount of faith early to grab good pantheon and religions buildings before they're picked. Tech doesn't really matter either, you actually want to avoid teching up too quickly due to later era buildings being more expensive.

 

[BurnBabyBurn]

Every time I play Deity, the luck of getting a religion depends on key characteristics. These are ~ The AI Civs ~ Closeness of a Religious Natural Wonder ~ The Civ I am Playing and whether or not I bang out meeting two Religious CSs early.

If I meet two Religious CSs an I am not in an immediate war I will add at least a Pantheon(#1 reason is you get an immediate bonus and this will not be negated till you get spammed with foreign Trades Routes and or Missionaries) 10% Growth for instance.

In late game I have done things like buy Happiness Buildings for free(even without a religion) +2 happiness X 2 or 3 cities is quite nice. Even some of the War Religions can be great for warmongers. Celts are great for an Early Religion and a warmonger(but they have little else to offer aside their UU and UB)

Most Religion for later games is for Happiness and or perhaps a Great Engineer or some goody. My last game I could buy Great Generals due to my Policies (oh yeah) talk about annexation of land) you can absorb tons of real estate for free...

So to sum of religion isn't a requirement but a tool if used properly can be very powerful but it's nothing in comparison with 15 landships with +1 attack per turn the minute the AI hits the Industrial Era. SO sacrifice very little to get religion

 

[Plumfairy]

In essence, I'm beginning to feel that the religion mechanic may be most advantageous when you don't found. This allows you to prioritize other buildings and resources that will bring victory. Religious tenets are not game deciding, so much so that in games where I fight protracted battles of conversion, I'm often left feeling like, "Well I managed to convert the world, but it's turn 250 and I don't feel any better off!" Setting aside the fun gameplay aspect, do you feel it is truly worth the resources to found? If so, how do you directly use religion to influence your victory?

Yeah, I usually find that founding a religion is worth it, although I only try to found one when the conditions are right:

1) I'm playing a faith-oriented civ, or
2) I'm near a faith-generating natural wonder, or
3) The terrain can generate faith with a particular pantheon.

Founding your own religion gives you the following advantages, all of which are available only to civs that found a religion:

1) You can build the Grand Temple. (I only build this about 50% of the time when I found a religion)
2) You can select useful beliefs. (When you use a religion that was founded by another civ, usually at least one of the beliefs is useless.)
3) All the Founder beliefs benefit only the civ that founds the religion.


In addition, when you found a religion, you'll probably pick a religious building & be able to buy a building in all your cities. Those suckers give you happiness, faith, *and* culture. In the games where I don't found a religion, I'm always struck by how little faith & culture my cities produce w/out any religious buildings.

 

[Seoul]

I think it really just depends on your start.

If you started by salt, I'd open mining and do worker -> scout -> shrine instead of the typical scout -> scout -> shrine opening. Likewise, I'd rush the hell out of pottery if I started in desert or by lots of stone / marble or some other start than gives me very strong faith generation. But typically, you should just adjust your religion priority based on your start (unless you're rushing stonehenge on a lower difficulty, then you don't need to care at all lol).

 

[Sclb]

Why would you ever start your build with worker instead of a scout? The cost for a worker is high, and you lose a lot of potential huts. Also you should build a monument early unless you find culture.

 

[stormtrooper412]

Who's talking about Deity? Nothing works on Deity except Tradition-Rationalism or exploits, no fun allowed.

Nope used to think that myself

 

[Seoul]

Why would you ever start your build with worker instead of a scout? The cost for a worker is high, and you lose a lot of potential huts. Also you should build a monument early unless you find culture.

Salt is a ridiculously strong tile.

Kidnapping workers takes a while and has too many uncontrollable variables, like barbarians and CS distance (and AI blocking your worker's trip into your territory). Yes, you're missing some ruin opportunities, but +3 food +2 production +1 gold +4 happiness tile off the bat at around turn 15~16 is just too good. Think of it like this: if you do decide to spend early production on scout instead, you delay that salt from being worked by 5-10 turns depending on if you made 1 or 2 scouts. That's equal to 5-10 food AND production that you're missing in the early game, which could have cut down your city growth (and consequently, your early science) by a few turns as well, not to mention it'll allow you to build your monuments and future scouts at a much better rate afterwards.

Really, it's a very safe route to take IF you do spawn by salt. Making scouts just leaves too much to chance, and there is also the possibility of finding no ruins or only maps / barbarian camp locations.

I would never open worker for any other occasion but a salt start (Desert salt doesn't count :V)

 

[Dushku]

Salt is a ridiculously strong tile.

This is true, but the thread is about founding a religion. Earth Mother doesn't care if the Salt is improved or not. Also, building a second Scout could also become your Worker through theft. It could also become +1 pop, which makes up for the Salt not yet being improved. It could be 100 gold (or much more with early CS meets), which puts you closer to buying a Worker.

I'm not saying you're wrong or Sclb is right, but there's come counterpoints for you.