Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Artifex1, May 26, 2014.
Is liberty dead?
It's not dead, it's just not as good as Tradition.
I just played a game with Liberty... completely dominated from start to finish.
I just think I need to get used to playing wide instead of tall. Settlers and workers can really make a difference.
I've started opening with Tradition, grabbing the culture building then going over to Liberty and finishing up Tradition later.
Like most things in the game, it all depends on the situation.
It's certainly not. I voted for the 2nd option. I do use Tradition a lot more than Liberty but from time to time it's better to use Liberty especially for domination and sacred sites cultural game strategies based on pre determined goals.
I think it might be better if you have TONS of resources around that provide coins when worked. But even an above-average starting area for your first few cities is probably better with Tradition.
I prefer liberty in island maps since honor and all the other social policies like piety don't give so much production needed for ships and land...
I voted last option even though I fulfill the third option of "using it more than Tradition".
Tradition has Monarchy, that is it. Sure, free culture buildings and aqueducts are convenient, but not game-changers. Growth bonus in capital is good. But really, the only thing that makes Tradition shine over Liberty is access to that happiness. Boosting a capital to size 30+ requires a ton of outside happiness sources without it.
You can still boost capital with Liberty, it is just that Tradition makes it a complete non-issue. No need to balance out luxuries and manage population growth, just pump with food, sit back, and relax.
But the thread is about Liberty, not Tradition. Things I like about Liberty:
- I don't feel the need to complete it ASAP, thus able to mix it with other trees. Even mixing it with Tradition policies sometimes. With full Tradition, you feel like you cannot divert because delayed growth bonus and aqueducts kind of defeats the purpose of them.
- More flexible, IMO. Opens up various options which are difficult to do with other trees.
- Easier to get out early-game military (if you are like me and don't like stealing AI workers)
It's currently a close second behind Tradition; but that difference is enough for me to never pick Liberty.
But both Tradition & Liberty are miles ahead of both Piety and Honor.
If I were trying to balance the opening policies I would:
1. Minor nerfs to Tradition by downsizing the finisher growth bonus to all cities down to the first four cities (same ones getting free aquaducts) & remove the city bombard bonus.
2. More significant nerf to Monarchy: bonus happiness & gold for every 3 citizens instead of 2.
3. Nerf to Liberty : Remove the free Great Person from finisher. Relocate the free GA to the finisher
4. Minor boost to Honor: One of the policies would get the city ranged bombardment bonus.
5. More significant boost to Honor: Move the City Walls happiness bonus from Autocracy back to an Honor policy.
6. Boost to empires going wide regardless of policies:
National wonders would require flat 4 copies regardless of size of the empire.
7. Boost to later city founding: For cities whose settler is built starting in Midevil era, have the city start with a free Granary. For cities whose settler is built starting in Industrial era, also include a free Monument & Shrine. Starting in the modern era, also include a free library.
Tradition is usually useful when she talks a lot and stuff...
I strongly agree with #2, I agree with, 1, 3, 4, and 7, I disagree with #5 because it already has the garrison bonus and Honor shouldn't be the happiness tree, and #6 I strongly disagree with because you're upsetting a core mechanic of the tall vs. wide gameplay styles.
One of the conversion mods in the mods forum, Reform and Rule, changes Tradition by making one of the policies strictly apply bonuses to national wonders.
This is simplicity itself, and in my balance mod I am outright taking this idea.
I believe the appropriate policy for it to replace is Legalism. There is simply no way to justify free hammers. If one branch has free hammers, the other branches need free hammers to compete. But this doesn't make the branches expressive of things, it just overspecializes them - it makes so pol choice a tedium, not a speciation of your strategy - and on top of that, it is specifically removing one of the components of the game (i.e. spending your hammers!), which is at odds with the assumption that the game's basics are fun.
I toyed briefly with the idea of making the monuments not maintenance free. For one, the game doesn't actually let you get "free" buildings without being free, but I was DLL modifying anyway. I think Tradition needs to be drilled into and redesigned, that's all there is to it.
I don't have a problem with one branch being strongest, or even with that branch being Tradition. 'Liberty' is something armies die for, after all. What dismays me is that Tall is always just better and safer than Wide. Balancing Tall/Wide is first, and a second priority is making the Tradition-Liberty choice a choice. In fact, my design would be for Tradition/Liberty to be a way of specializing within either vector of the Tall/Wide choice, but that is why my mod is a total conversion.
As far as I'm concerned, Liberty tree has been dead on arrival. It feels like Liberty help you snowball quickly at the beginning but Tradition is way more comfortable for me. Plus you're pigeonholed into first four cities for fair chunk of the game anyways unless your position over average.
To me, anyone who claims liberty is dead seems to be too rusted into a specific playstyle. Maybe a specific maptype, too. Liberty is a safer option as Tradition, actually, given that you don't have to dedicate early hammers to a settler and your 2nd/3rd worker, and secures you a Great Engineer for the all-important rennaisance wonders of choice. You don't NEED to spam cities to make Liberty worthwhile. Liberty works just fine with even as little as 3 cities, because you do get a global production bonus, a small happiness boon, and a few useful hammer discounts on top of having to spend less culture for later policies.
However, it is true that Liberty still probably isn't as directly powerful as Tradition in the long run on standard maps. But try some bigger maps for a change. Try mongering a bit of war. You'll find Liberty to be useful in both occasions.
Personally the only balancing needed is removing border expansion bonus from tradition and reducing NC bonus form 50% to 25%,
the problem is, unless you can FOR SURE find a 5th city location and probably really a 6th spot, its not worth it. It really seems the script for human players is to give them 1 happiness resource in massive excess and almost no others without really reaching. This seems to 90% of the time work with tradition.
Liberty has social policies that speeds up the production of buildings like artists' guilds, musicians' school and writers' guild. Once you have the republic social policy you get the building booster which can speed up these buildings' production. Specialists from these buildings can increase your cpt, social policies and gpt as well.
Its finisher could use a second effect.
Liberty is a bit behind Tradition but not as much as people think, if they made the "free" great person at the end actually free I would take it a lot more often
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