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[R&F] Is Loyalty too Forgiving? (Early Game)

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Amrunril, Jan 23, 2018.

  1. Amrunril

    Amrunril Emperor

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    Based on the math we know so far, as well as the early gameplay I saw in Quill's Cree LP, it seems like keeping cities loyal, in the absence of significant pressure from opposing civs, will be far too easy. A new city, even settled half a continent away during a dark age, begins with its loyalty at 100/100 and rising, so long as no enemy city is affecting it. Given that this new city will immediately begin growing and producing its own loyalty, the situation will only improve from there. I don't think that players should routinely lose cities to low loyalty, but I do think they should have to make at least a bit of effort to avoid this: an isolated city should require some investment to keep in line, even if (or maybe especially if) it isn't threatened by a hostile power. Players have an extensive toolbox for dealing with loyalty issues, from assigning governors, to choosing policies, to building monuments and securing excess amenities, to simply settling cities close together. In most cases though (again, before the addition of opposing city pressure, which I don't have a good feel for yet), they can get by without even opening this toolbox. I would argue that cities should begin with loyalty trending slightly downwards and that non-foreign sources of disloyalty in general should be increased. I don't think that this would cause many non-pressured cities to actually defect, but it would force players to at least consider the possibility, which I think would be an improvement in both gameplay and immersion.
     
  2. UWHabs

    UWHabs Deity

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    I'd agree. If a city started at, say, -2 loyalty, then you basically have 50 turns by default to right the ship, as it were. If a dark age, then maybe more like 30 turns. By then, you should be able to at least get a monument out, or run the loyalty for garrisoned units policy, to keep it at 100%. Would seem fair for a city with absolutely no pressure, positive or negative, from anyone else.
     
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  3. Lord_Azazel

    Lord_Azazel Prime Swatter

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    I agree with you. Say you settle some cities on a new and empty continent, they would most likely develop their own culture over time, and you'd have to enact policies etc. to keep them happy. If not, they might defect. A defecting city should also give a negative loyalty hit on other cities in that area, both domestic and foreign. You could see a wave of cities in this new continent defect from their masters, only to form a civilization of their own, from the defected cities.

    Edit: spelling.
     
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  4. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    You would need some type of neutral loyalty then, it seems at the moment loyalty is civ based and CS are immune.
    I really see no issue with it as it is.... if you implement some negatives and civs get close and a dark age hits it may just be too much.
    To be fair, you found a city and no-one else is nearby then the loyalty should be yours. I do get the remote cities wanting independence bit but to place additional loyalty pressures in there can be quite complex and we have all tested this a lot less than Firaxis. A minus 2 loyalty would be like having a 4 pop enemy city 4 tiles away... quite a change being suggested.
    Loyalty is really a more modern thing as people become less reliant on the basic needs, in early days if you were in a city and being housed you were pretty loyal and only other cities caused interaction really.

    Forming 3 cities overseas would provide loyalty for each other and the forming their distinct own loyalty over time is a mechanic too far for this release I would say.
     
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  5. Lord_Azazel

    Lord_Azazel Prime Swatter

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    It's been a while, but didn't the revolution mod for civ4 do this? Which was incorporated in Rhye's and Fall if I recall correctly. In that case, I do think this could be doable with mods once R&F is out.
     
  6. DeutschDachs

    DeutschDachs Emperor

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    Doesn't surprise me too much. When they added city flipping from ideological pressure in Civ V I thought that would be a pretty cool feature. Never saw it happen in the hundreds of hours I played.
     
  7. h0nk0815

    h0nk0815 Warlord

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    I wonder if the settler / loyality lense will give to much infomation about nearby civs or cities. Because if you see empty land with negative loyality, than you know that there must be a different civ. Aditionally it'll be a little bit immersion breaking, if you citizens want to join a civ they are not even aware of.
     
  8. Arent11

    Arent11 King

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    Right now I think the threat is too low & can easily be circumvented by simply wiping nearby civs out. On the other hand I understand that if you constantly take away cities from the player, this would be a serious reason for ragequits.
    In my humble opinion a good solution would be more ~smooth disadvantages. For example, a low loyalty city should first have production penalties & finally go into anarchy, which means completely halted production & growth. In the most extreme cases, these cities then declare their independence.
    In this way, in a dark age, large parts of your civilization would become unproductive or decent into anarchy, but still remain in your civ. You would see your civilization literally breaking apart, but not always to the point that cities declare their independence. Players would not be frustated but see a serious challenge.
     
  9. Lee Duane Fitzsimmons

    Lee Duane Fitzsimmons Full-time Cat Lover

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    I've found that it is just better to kill them all once they get too close.

    Being too nice always ends up biting me in the ass in the later stages of the game.
     
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  10. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Deity

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    I'm pretty happy with what I saw in that game. Only forward settling should be punished, which the AI got hit by a couple of times by free cities.

    I'm pretty sure this can be modded to give more of a revolution flair to the game.
     
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  11. Olleus

    Olleus Deity

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    Not so sure about that. The greeks settled lots of colonies around 700-400BC across the mediterranean. Those cities were governed almost completely independently (apart from sharing some cult gods). They relationship to their parent city was closer to that of an equal alliance than a imperial-colony one. If anything, until modern communications keeping colonies far away loyal was pretty much impossible (see north and south america circa 1800). The long lasting empires of antiquity were all contiguous and, broadly speaking, increased in size slowly (ie, Roman/Carthaginian vs Macedonian). The sea borne empires of the Dutch and Portugese were millennia later and had small populations whose loyalty (in civ terms) was maintained by large amounts of trade.

    I think it would be good for immersion and gameplay if it was impractical until the Industrial era in civ to build cities so far away from your borders that they don't get any loyalty - unless you are willing to send a governor there or are dutch and have trade routes.

    It would also be nice to have a mechanism for free cities to band together into a new civ if there are many next to each other and they are left alone for some time, but I don't think that's necessary for what I describe.
     
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  12. Amrunril

    Amrunril Emperor

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    This is something in the neighborhood of what I'm thinking (maybe a bit more negative pressure as the city's own growth would help too).And of course anything in this range could be more than overcome if you're willing to commit a governor.

    I don't think negative loyalty without a civ specific source would be a problem mechanically (it would be an issue if defecting cities had to go to another civ, but since they always become free cities first, I don't see any problem with simply adding up positive and negative effects to determine total change). As for the balance issue, if this ends up being too much total negative pressure, my inclination would be to cut back a bit on pressure from other civs (perhaps a reduced effect if the foreign civ doesn't have some connection like founding the target city, sharing a religion or having high tourism). I'd rather have loyalty be a mix of domestic and international dynamics than overwhelmingly the latter.

    This is the other issue, besides the early game, that non pressure based negative loyalty would help address. Wiping civs off the map shouldn't do so much to eliminate the loyalty issues in cities you've conquered.
     
  13. Trengilly

    Trengilly Warlord

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    At this point we'll have to see how it plays out in two weeks when R&F is released. But the great news is that Firaxis has added a loyalty system. If it needs adjusting they can do that in a later update or modders can have all sorts of fun with it.

    I have to give them kudos for thinking big with the R&F expansion. They have thrown in a TON of stuff and appear to have tweaked all sorts of things.
     
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  14. Temppu

    Temppu Warlord

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    I have got the impression that Loyalty is intended to be a late-game issue that also nerfs warmongering to some extent. So I see no problem in Loyalty being no problem in the already interesting early game.
     
  15. Haig

    Haig Deity

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    Well one livestreamer got in big trouble with Loyalty (played as Mongolia, it was Drew or GamerZach can't remember)

    I think so far it looks promising, but when it's released we get to know better.
     
  16. Tomice

    Tomice Passionate Smart-Ass

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    What about amenities???
    Don't they modify loyalty as well? If not, then it's a missed chance!
    If you overexpand, having negative amenities might drive your remote colonies into rebellion, especially during dark ages.

    I don't think that small, remote colonies should have a penalty apart from the amenity system.
    Why should a few thousand isolated settlers rebell against their motherland if they are well-supplied and not influenced by another nation?
     
  17. Tomice

    Tomice Passionate Smart-Ass

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    Oh dear, what a disappointment! :sad: :mischief: :rolleyes:

    In Quill's Poundmaker playthrough, he opens the amenity screen at 28:28, and there is no loyalty effect from negative amenities :mad:
    Why didn't they realize the most obvious, immersive connection between these two systems?

     
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  18. stealth_nsk

    stealth_nsk Deity

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    They do. Loyalty screen displays modifiers from amenities.
     
  19. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    If you watch Drew in that he charged in blandly, he even had no idea what a red fist is and suddenly went into a dark age without being aware of the consequences half way through invading China. It was just complete disregard for implications rather than loyalty being a true killer. I am in no way discarding loyalty
    as a danger but this is the worst situation I could imagine for city flipping so he got what he deserved.
    That is relying on them having correctly updated that screen, no guarantee it does not, Firaxis is not the best for ensuring all screens match.

    But do negative amenties show there?


    So what do we have on the effect of amenities on loyalty?
     
  20. Tomice

    Tomice Passionate Smart-Ass

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    Here is the loyalty screen at 27:24:

    He gets +3 loyalty from "happiness level" while having +2 amenities

     
  21. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    So when Drew's captured city went neutral is spawned 2 swordsmen. It only took a couple of turns to swing because it was so close to the Chinese capital the pressure was very strong.
    It is a question of whether this neutral city is at war with you, it seems not. So charge in take cities, let them swing if there is no way to stop it, just take out the capital as soon as possible and then come back for the neutrals seems like the best option.
    I suspect the 'other' includes capital pressure and card pressure like for a garrison.

    here is the screen from the above
    upload_2018-1-24_11-31-54.png

    One from Drew's game
    upload_2018-1-24_11-39-40.png

    I like this governor moving screen that shows you loyalty change
    upload_2018-1-24_11-35-38.png
     
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