Is my game already ruined at turn 160? / Tips agains the Mongol Horde on Emperor

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by StevenV, Mar 2, 2018.

  1. StevenV

    StevenV Chieftain

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    Dear experienced users :)

    I want to save my game and looking for tips how to stops the mongols or just not being eliminated :lol:

    I know, i should have think about it earlier, but I though they would have serious penalty due to the high population -> unhappiness.
    Unfortunately, they have no such issue. they even have higher happiness then my empire.

    20180301055714_1.jpg

    My ideas are:

    A) wait for galleas/frigates and attack their coastal cities and later liberate the city states and the annexed cities
    pros: I am better at sea, they have great wall so land attack would be much harder
    against: I need to keep those coastal cities

    B) attack now and hope the best :lol:

    C) not attack, wait for to caravel, discover world, get Statecraft and try to win with diplo with overseas city state alliences

    D) not attack, be friendly with them and focus on science, try to win with spaceship

    Here are the current situation:

    20180301055611_1.jpg 20180301055627_1.jpg 20180301060200_1.jpg

    Any advice is welcomed, but I definitely do not want to quit. :nono:
    Thanks.
     
  2. Workerspam

    Workerspam Prince

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    You are in a tough spot there. Thoughts on your strategy options:

    A) Might be your best option if the Mongols stop at devouring the Netherlands. The danger is if they keep conquering you may not get to Galleas/Frigates before the Mongols do, and they'll have superior naval numbers. But if you can beat him to it and deploy a solid force you might be able to liberate/conquer some of the coastal cities.

    B) As you've already surmised, they have more troops, appear to have a more advanced army, and have the Great Wall. Going on the offensive is not a good option right now. If you can get nearly equal to them in military techs it might be worth engaging in a defensive war to keep some of their forces occupied on you, lessening their ability to steamroll others. Tiwanaku appears to be in decent defensive position with rivers and jungle to slow down attackers; Machu could be a problem.

    C) Not promising without liberating some of the CS near you; you'd be relying on the rest of the world to more or less ignore CS relationships.

    D) To be a neighbor of the Mongols is to eventually war with the Mongols. If you decide to go this route it's worth staying friendly best you can; who knows, maybe he takes a shine to you and never attacks. If you can survive long enough and the Mongols don't reach the conquering tipping point or take off in science themselves, maybe you could pull it off.

    If I were in your position I'd aim for a strong defense and a culture/science end game. If you can rally a coalition to fight the Mongols on multiple fronts, even better.
     
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  3. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Deity

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    Map type? Size?
    If you are playing on a large terra map, you have more options. You could quicksave the game, retire, check the map for additional settle spots and go there asap.
    If you are playing on pangäa map, you are kinda doomed. I wouldnt rely on the little chance, the mongols will stay friendly to you.
    The best option is to liberate Lhasa relative fast and then stay defensive, pulling their troops and attention away from further invasions.
    Slingers are extremly great if you are able to upgrade them. With that plenty of iron, you should be able to face them with combination of sword man and upgraded slingers (double attack).
    WIth some support of ships, mombasa could be liberated too, but this match will be a very tough fight.
    Try to fight only on your territory, the warmonger fervor will help you in facing them.
     
  4. Noob Fanboy

    Noob Fanboy Warlord

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    Take Lhasa then stay defensive with a lot ot forts (to avoid no being able to use your archers in jungle) and some defensive roads near your border, try to get some units with medic I at least (your archers). Remember, mongols ignore zone of control in ranged mounted units, if you want to keep your archers alive try to don't make a hole in your formation.

    Instead of declaring war, try to bride them to declare war in you. (No diplomatic penalties). If you kill enough units, you can bride Norway to declare war in them.

    But really, a Inca playthrough without mountains and 2 picks in progress after tradition, and then a mongol horde. Weird game.
     
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  5. bigcat88

    bigcat88 King

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    Lhasa and Mogadishu can be liberated.(If Mongols are far away from Caravels)
    Then u can try such a thing(was fine in previous versions) - Mongols capture Lhasa/Mogadishu again - u liberate it. Doing it 5 times in a row will allow you to get good warscore.

    U have very bad policies pick - no full tradition, no full progress. Better restart this game from InitialAutosave and try going full Progress/Tradition/Authority.
     
  6. Giza

    Giza Chieftain

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    If you le liberate a city-state, beware that Mongolia is just going to annex it again (using heavy tribune) as soon as they can. The city-state will always have very low defensive values and it will always be afraid of Mongolia.

    Attacking is definitely not an option.

    Their expansion will probably slow down their science. So I recommend getting ahead in science and defending with a technologically superior army. Get a good navy to defend and counter-attack their coastal cities if they decide to go to war. This makes them hold a force in their territory to defend instead of attacking with full force.

    Diplomatic victory is probably hard, but you should use the congress and diplomacy to contain them.

    I would not be friendly with them unless it's to your advantage. Don't outright provoke them, but don't hesitate to use resolutions to hamper their progress (i'm supposing you have a good force to defend).
     
  7. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Deity

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    I remember me, the tribute-annex ability has a 50 turn cooldown. Gazebo integrated it cause in lot of cases the ability has lead to a giant snowball.
    You should still be able to liberate them and, if tribute annexed again, reliberate should be easy.
     
  8. Deadstarre

    Deadstarre Expert

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    yeah, your game is ruined.

    but whats with everybody picking 2x ancient policy trees? :confused:
     
  9. Amask

    Amask Oogala Boogala

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    Post a save and mod version.
     
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  10. Rafs

    Rafs Warlord

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    You should wait for knights and crossbows (as they will have logistics), plus some swordmans with cover,to try tackling the mongols and liberating other cities, but that shouldn't stop you from declaring (because if you don't do something soon I don't known if sweden will hold on until caroleans) and try to go on a pillaging spree with some horses/knights (too bad genghis got the great wall tbh). You can try to bait him to send defenses to lhasa (it's very weak), and you should aim to break his city connections near his capital ASAP, if he's very focused on his war with the netherlands his units should be far away. I wouldn't recommend delaying taking action against them unless you are very near a military tech that you believe is key to your offensem as the more you wait the more likely it is genghis will win his war against the netherlands and have his units back home.
     
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  11. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Deity

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    I see relative often AI with 2 medieval trees. Sometimes with 2 ancient trees. Not that rare.

    But you may be right, its a relative hard to win, especially vs mounted unit heavy mongols.
     
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  12. Deadstarre

    Deadstarre Expert

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    It's not rare, but I think that speaks to a problem. AI is handicapping itself picking 2x ancient trees, same as I think this player did to himself.
     
  13. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Dunno about that, the AI often does really well on two ancient trees because of the synergy of base yields with AI % modifiers.

    G
     
  14. Deadstarre

    Deadstarre Expert

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    Well Genghis started with Authority. Statecraft is out cause hes Genghis, Artistry is out because thats not fitting his plans, however if Progress was the best choice over Fealty, for a founder that appears to be spreading nicely mind you, then we may as well throw the fealty tree out altogether. I know that progress base yields arent > fealty on turn 160

    edit: it is to say, hes doing well here because hes doing well, but thats not to do with his having picked progress for a 2nd tree. ultimately he'd be doing even better with fealty
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2018
  15. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Okay? Fact is, if Progress and Fealty are the top two branches for Genghis, and he's not playing Deity, there's a 50/50 shot he'll pick either one (as that's how the handicap selector works).

    G
     
  16. Deadstarre

    Deadstarre Expert

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    I forgot about that, too used to deity I guess. although i agreed with Biteinthemark statement that this isn't rare because i *am* playing deity and I am regularly seeing 2x ancient trees. i'll admit, i have -not- seen authority into progress though, its that i am seeing tradition into progress.

    also, i dont know if policy choices could be excluded from the handicap random selector (i.e. any difficulty will always pick the best tree for themselves that aligns with their goals, while maintaining randomness for all other factors), but if it could be done that way id say it should be. players may not always be able to pick the best building out of a queue for their city, but i think most players will intuitively select a tree that unlocks later (which hints that its stronger) over the earlier ones, and especially the lowest level players would follow what looks to be a natural progression. (I dont mean to pick on OP, im sure he had his reasons but I doubt it is very common among newcomers that theyd go tradition into progress)

    edit: has the design goal been that later trees are more powerful than early ones? or were they meant to be on 'different but equal' footing to account for this randomness factor? the game sorta indicates later = more powerful and that would make a lot of sense in almost every way but its an honest question because while its appeared that way to me, you would of course know best
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2018
  17. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Each tree is tailored to the needs of the era it unlocks in, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they become obsolete.

    G
     
  18. Deadstarre

    Deadstarre Expert

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    not obsolete, but as you said for the era they unlock in, the later trees should be more relevant (powerful) at the time. OK so im clear on that

    so what im thinking is, its OK to give players and a AI picking randomly the choice between beliefs which arent obvious which will be the most beneficial, its OK to give them that same choice for buildings, or for which Tech to grab next, but im not so sure its OK to give them a choice and make it a random option between picking progress vs picking industry. This becomes like flipping a coin to decide whether we'd want to build an Archer or a Knight. Sure, the Archer is a different unit with different strengths but %99 of the time the Knight will be better, and thats intuitive for anybody just by glancing at them; I think the same is true of the later trees when compared to the earlier ones.

    Biteinthemark says AI regularly skipping Industrial trees to pick 2x medieval... does that make peoples Prince games better and more fun to have an AI able to make that kind of blunder? is there a player at any level who finds regularly skipping industrial trees to be a reasonable game decision? The random blunder Id be more comfortable with is them picking Statecraft when they should have picked Fealty - these are at least somewhat equal

    But again, i have zero clue if policy selection could be separated from the randomness selector or simply locked as you progress past them probably until ideologies are chosen. I know people love going back to earlier trees to cherry pick policies at this point ;)

    edit: Locking the older trees until ideology makes the most sense. this preserves AI random selection among the 3 most relevant options at the time, but still giving them the freedom to make the least optimal decision
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2018
  19. Amask

    Amask Oogala Boogala

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    I'm not why you are all acting like it's some kind of established wisdom to go one ancient tree -> one medieval -> one industrial.
    Authority has the potential to outshine many other trees regardless of when you take it.
    Artistry can outshine many others if you have beliefs that benefit golden ages. Maybe you went authority->fealty, then conquered a great golden-age-enhancing religion, or managed to snag Chichen Itza, and ivory monopoly on top of that?
    Nothing wrong with progress->tradition either in the right circumstances. I've done it on deity and did great.
     
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  20. Deadstarre

    Deadstarre Expert

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    1) please do tell? and specifically how its better than Imperialism for war related purposes, we could use this as an opportunity to find out where Imperialism is losing its role to an ancient tree...

    2) this is really quite the scenario youve cooked up. i concede there are %1 outlier cases where its appropriate to skip an industrial tree. I dont see that as a reason to let AI be flipping coins for doing it in every game

    3) And youre certain taking Tradition after Progress was the reason you did great in the game? you think you'd have lost that same game with a Medieval tree?


    edit: what i am thinking of is locking outdated trees openers once a tree of that era is completed. This prevents the AI from starting down an outdated tree, but actually would not prevent a player from taking 2x ancient trees as they can unlock both without completing one fully, something AI will not do. so if a player was determined to use unorthodox strategy (read: a strategy that explicitly goes against the design goals of the game) or came across that %1 case, they have the freedom to explore it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2018

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