Is non riverside cottages that is HR supported worth it? An analysis

[stopstopp]

Do to the low amount of free units, I'm thinking more and more often that temples>HR for 2+ units in city.

 

[mirthadir]

Do to the low amount of free units, I'm thinking more and more often that temples>HR for 2+ units in city.

Depends on the unit. If you are gaming HR with mass warriors (no hunting/engineering or no linked metal) or mass chariots (no HBR) then I'd normally stick with the units just because the hammers saved are that big. Additionally, I can normally spam those in a dedicated production city leaving my commerce cities' hammers for multiplier infra. Between saved and multiplied with quicker building finishes, cheap HR units are still hard to beat.

However, yes eventually, temples become quite economical; particularly on higher difficulties where cultural borders matter more and where holding a culture line becomes increasingly difficult. Coupling them with cathedrals and incense can be quite effective.

 

[stopstopp]

I'm even thinking up to the point of Temples> HR warriors(2+ per city), depending on how long I run pacifism. Although including devalument of hammers, it may still be HR warriors 2+>temples. I'll have to work it out sometimes.

 

[DampRain]

If you run pacifism, don't use lots of HR units to cover lots of new tiles. Main exceptions are bureau cap, acad + lib, and mass GP farm. Riverside financial cottages maybe. Otherwise the costs are really too high.

 

[stopstopp]

The only reason I even run HR is for the 1 unit I do put in cities to give me happiness. I'm just going to try to find out, in situation x, how many HR units are worth more than temples in pacifism or even without on deity? Or is the simple fact of unit cost over time make temples better than HR warriors?

 

[DampRain]

The only reason I even run HR is for the 1 unit I do put in cities to give me happiness.

If you have a burea cap, you stack alot of HR there, same for GP farm, since payback is pretty much instant and high. Anywhere else, it simply wouldnt be worth building HR units (for sake of happiness alone) while in pacifism.

Looking at around 2.5 cost for that happy per turn. If the city isn't close, even more. The unit itself costs 15 hammers (warrior). You need at least a 3 hammer/commerce yield tile to turn a profit (a village on non river grassland tile). So best case, it takes 30 turns (0.5 return per turn) to cover the production cost. Thats ignoring depreciation. Also normally new tiles tend to be the least yield, and in some cases the shifting of tiles (in order to grow) also incurs a loss.

If your financial you could probably get it to work on coast or river tiles, but seeing the thread titale says non riverside cottages :\.

 

[stopstopp]

Even with riverside cottages though, your still losing in pacifism to work them, while with specialists and mines, you automatically get a gain. Pacifism is just so powerful a civic, that it overrides non riverside cottages completely and using HR it hurts mines and specialists science output, but makes around 1/3-1/2 more GP. It seems like non riverside cottages are having a bad day.

I think the thread title is more of a restriction now, as the scope of the discussion has surpassed the threads original purpose in the first place. Although I still need to do some calculations, so discussion on them would still be fruitful for maybe another day or so.

 

[vicawoo]

Even with riverside cottages though, your still losing in pacifism to work them, while with specialists and mines, you automatically get a gain. Pacifism is just so powerful a civic, that it overrides non riverside cottages completely and using HR it hurts mines and specialists science output, but makes around 1/3-1/2 more GP. It seems like non riverside cottages are having a bad day.

I think the thread title is more of a restriction now, as the scope of the discussion has surpassed the threads original purpose in the first place. Although I still need to do some calculations, so discussion on them would still be fruitful for maybe another day or so.

It's not very often that you'll have so many riversides grassland tiles that you'll run out of happiness.

The 10% devaluement is only affecting results by 2 or 3 turns, which does not change the decision making process.

1 warriors vs a temple, well that's -65 hammers, which if spent on wealth/research, you'll make it up in 65 turns. And if we're going to be consistent and throw in devaluement calculations,
caution: standard 10th-11th grade math ahead
that's sum( 1 x 0.9^(t/10), t=0..k) = (1+.9^(k/10))/0.1 = (1-0.9^((k+1)/10)/(1-.9^(1/10)) =65
1-65*(1-.9^(1/10)=0.9^((k+1)/10)
k+1=log(1-65*(1-.9^(1/10))/log(0.9^(1/10))
k=108.5 turns
Or if we use .76 gpt for the warrior
k+1=log(1-65/.76*(1-.9^(1/10))/log(0.9^(1/10))
k=214 turns
So you can choose to reject the devalue argument or never build temples

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Never is a strong word with SPI in the game and AI pressure making you think twice about not hooking up metal .

 

[DampRain]

Even with riverside cottages though, your still losing in pacifism to work them, while with specialists and mines, you automatically get a gain. Pacifism is just so powerful a civic, that it overrides non riverside cottages completely and using HR it hurts mines and specialists science output, but makes around 1/3-1/2 more GP. It seems like non riverside cottages are having a bad day.

Well if nonriverside cottages weren't having a bad day... we wouldn't have to build any other improvements.

Even with riverside cottages though, your still losing in pacifism to work them

Not necessarily true with regard to the bureau acad lib case.
Cost is 0.5 (pop upkeep), 2 (unit upkeep +pac).
-2.5gpt
1 commerce in your bureau acad lib cap gives 1.5*1.75 ~= 2.65. Strictly speaking, since the capital pays for some of the upkeep costs you can say it is 2.5. But that's only for one commerce. If it is a riverside cottage, then you immediately get a bonus of 2.5 bpt. After 10 turns, 5 bpt. If a longbow is your police unit, then within 20 turns you'd get your return back. Suppose it isn't a riverside cottage though, then payback is about 40 turns.

This also means, that if you have a acad + lib in another non cap city using HR to work a riverside cottage immediately has benefits (admittedly small), after 10, substantial benefits. If only a library exists, then it'll break even for the first 10 turns.

Yes pacifism does mean just about everything else is no longer a good idea to spam HR units and hope for the best, but that requires you to make a bit more thought in your decision making. If HR didn't have its drawbacks you'd have all your cities at size 16 very quickly into the game and earning ridiculous profits.

 

[vicawoo]

Never is a strong word with SPI in the game and AI pressure making you think twice about not hooking up metal .

Obviously you would just calculate

k=log(1-25/.76*(1-.9^(1/10))/log(0.9^(1/10))-1
or
k=log(1-55/.76*(1-.9^(1/10))/log(0.9^(1/10))-1

 

[stopstopp]

I see your point vicawoo. Actually I don't, but maybe it has to do with that I'm not in 10th grade yet.

I see that temples<HR warriors now, I better think twice before I hook up my metal then.

 

[DampRain]

Feel free to hook up your metal, and feel free to pillage it when its not needed, or trade it for resources/gold for Ai (obviously don't recommend trading it to monte or what not).

 

[georgjorge]

So I guess Temple > Warrior only with Spiritual, the AP religion and either the Minaret or Sankore...? Of course, at some point you'll switch out of Hereditary Rule, but by then you'll hopefully have enough happy resources.

 

[stopstopp]

Yes, you usually will switch out of HR, but usually to Rep with pyramids or universal suffrage for cottages. And since my recent lack of trusting cottages with anything but bureaucracy, I'm thinking staying in HR is a good option for the whole game, unless I need Police state for something, but I'll usually just pass up fascism for the choices of communism or biology or flight.

 

[mirthadir]

So I guess Temple > Warrior only with Spiritual, the AP religion and either the Minaret or Sankore...? Of course, at some point you'll switch out of Hereditary Rule, but by then you'll hopefully have enough happy resources.

AP temples are only not worth building if you are about to kill the AP, have extremely short term objectives of utmost importance (e.g. cannons), or can't afford more culture (e.g. trying to stay under border counts for close borders anger). In other words almost never. For SM or UoS, they both payout pretty quick and I'd have to have some very good other options (e.g. libs, mons, etc.) to skip either for a warrior.


It depends on what you are doing. For a high religion game you can often run caste + SP + FR + defy a lot of stuff. Temples, cathedrals (requiring temples) and incense can mean + 2 in your largest cities (those closest to the cap). Swapping to US can be rather nice (particularly if I get the Kremlin) and that leaves with me with few options to drive up my cap.

Yes, you usually will switch out of HR, but usually to Rep with pyramids or universal suffrage for cottages. And since my recent lack of trusting cottages with anything but bureaucracy, I'm thinking staying in HR is a good option for the whole game, unless I need Police state for something, but I'll usually just pass up fascism for the choices of communism or biology or flight.

With the Kremlin, and even without it from banking to AL, US has the most production potential of any civic in the game in a lot of cases. If diplo will let you turtle until the cottages mature into towns, cottage spam is a gimmee. PS opens whenever you build or more likely take the mids. If I reach a strong military advantage I will often drop into PS for the war weariness reduction and excess troops. Rep is much better than HR if you have surplus food (e.g. a strong Sushi); HR is argueably the weakest of the lot for the late game where you have so many happiness options (FR, resource trades world wide, slider, double most everything, vassals).