Is Oxford that good?

[Archon_Wing]

Most of the time I was thinking one of the few percentage based ones would be good, but how much science can an individual city really generate? Assuming Enlightenment boosted campus and grabbing all the needed great people, we're talking a +20 uni, a +8 library, and +10 (expensive) research lab. And let's assume +4 from adjacency and a 30 pop city (unlikely) for +21. That means a city with 63 science. 20% of that isn't very impressive. Even if we had some more insane bonuses popping it to 100, it'd be the equivalent of an extra university. Of course, there's the additional issue of Einstein not being there until the modern era.

So basically, we're building the thing for 2 free techs then? Problem is that sometimes beelines are done so it might pick up some pretty bad ones. For example, I never pick up military tactics, or if I'm playing a Pangaea-like map, naval techs would be irrelevant. (Then again, I never play that in this game)

Finally, it also comes at a time where you have things like Big Ben and Ruhr, if you're not trying to win the game already.

I actually think this wonder seems stronger if you're not going for a science victory. If say, you are going culture or warring, you are more likely to not have that strong of a science and getting lucky with the techs can allow you to catch up especially if you are losing the GPs. The 2 extra slots of writing also helps with the culture game.

On a related note, what about Research Labs? Any pleb city can build or buy a university, but those things are so expensive and don't give much more than a university. With great people boosting unis, it feels even worse. They often come so late that some don't even finish before I've researched everything and then they just cost me maintenance (somewhat muted with the Totalitarian card)

 

[Rosty K]

I've always thought of it exclusively as giving the 2 free techs, never even looked at the bonus. As for the 2 techs it's indeed not that strong for me usually - it'll often give me the pokemon pikeman tech, or the one I'm close to completing anyway, or both.

Though it's not as bad as the 2 free civics from Bolshoi Theater, which will always be those I'm trying to avoid (like the one which cancels Triangular Trade)...

 

[Archon_Wing]

Obsoleting civics is pretty annoying.

Though I also think Bolshoi is good for non culture victories too as it can boost you through the tree if your culture isn't the strong.

 

[ShakaKhan]

My opinion...

Is it that good? No. But, it grants a losing game a slightly better chance of winning. I would build it if the 20% boost to one city would result in X% or more (usually 10%) of my total research. The only circumstance that this would happen, however, is if I have very few cities by that point in the game. And the only circumstance that that would happen would be if was unsuccessful in claiming enough territory early on. Now, if I were isolated, I'd be able to claim enough territory (and have a slower and more boring/tedious victory.) If I was not isolated, that means that I was unable to knock out an early neighbor for super-early hyper-expansion. But at this point in our tenure with the game and the lack of variance provided by expansions, I probably would have quit by then as the game feels laborious enough when you're on the victory path, and simply too exhausting to drudge through if you don't get the good early game successes.

 

[Turrdy]

Funny enough, I mostly only get the boosts and not the whole techs. Well, at least some of the great scientists who give you techs don't work as intended...

 

[Kyro]

I've flaked the "Wonder" title of this building multiple times. A definite No. 20% in a single city is very, very weak for something that is supposed to be a Wonder. In fact, I daresay it is still weak even if it gives a 100% increase because there is nothing it actually boosts significantly. In Civ 5 for example, a 50% boost would be significant because of Academy Improvements and higher populations. In Civ 6 the multi-pronged nerfing of multiplicative bonuses through the removal of population-benefiting percentage boosting features, decimation of population growth through housing and removal of great people yield improvements makes Wonders like this Relatively useless because of the far more efficient alternative of just founding a new city; especially when you can cluster your cities with benefit.

As for the Tech boosts most of them are easy to get and since you cannot choose which ones to boost, should the wonder boost the easier ones it basically gave you nothing.

A new City will always outweigh whatever benefit many Wonders attempt to provide, which makes them utterly weak and pointless since their powers aren't exclusive any longer.

 

[Victoria]

You missed up to 16 for science city states.
Never built it, I see it like I see the great library, something to slow down the opposition. Leaving these tempting but tasteless fruits on the tree is fine by me.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Well, I seem glad that I have just forgotten about it most games. IMO it needs let you select the technology like its Civ 5 counterpart.

A new City will always outweigh whatever benefit many Wonders attempt to provide, which makes them utterly weak and pointless since their powers aren't exclusive any longer.

I agree in like 90% of cases yes, but there are times later in the game where you may run out of space. Though I guess you could argue about conquering their cities.

There are a few wonders like Colosseum though that really do pay off since it allows for expansion or conquest without fear of amenities. And there are also the extra card wonders that give something an extra city can't. But they still have multipurpose, such as the Big Ben.

And also, Mt. St. Michel, which can be a literal gamewinner given the right circumstances.

That being said, I think a lot of wonders should apply globally. Applying a bonus to a single city is just silly. The only sorta good % one is Ruhr Valley, and I stopped building that too because IZs are sorta whatever.

The most terrible thing about Civ 6 wonders is not even their opportunity cost, but the fact you completely waste your time if it fails, aka High Risk No Reward.

Never built it, I see it like I see the great library, something to slow down the opposition. Leaving these tempting but tasteless fruits on the tree is fine by me.

I built the Great Lib once, if only to hold some great writings as Russia.

 

[Victoria]

Eiffel is pretty handy for the farm/neighbourhood swap.. although 100 gold a city is not blinding it can be handy if you do not have many CH.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Eiffel is pretty handy for the farm/neighbourhood swap.. although 100 gold a city is not blinding it can be handy if you do not have many CH.

Yea, I forgot about that. The appeal is pretty crazy. No matter how many cities you make, you cannot generate more seaside resort tiles in a lot of cases. I'm not sure how fast those things go on high difficulties though, since I generally max out at King. (I know Colosseum is possible at any difficulty since the AI doesn't know how to build it)

 

[Victoria]

I'm not sure how fast those things go on high difficulties though

Eiffel is never really an issue on deity unless you ignore it a while, it's not a path many civs take. Christo is though.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Christo is though.

That results in sadface but Christo I guess is the less important one anyways.

 

[Kyro]

@Archon_Wing

That's why I said many* not all. There are powerful wonders like Pyramids, Great Zimbabwe, Venetian Arsenal, Forbidden Palace to name some. Most of them, especially the Cultural Wonders do not have exclusive powers worth their risk or time. I'd say of the 33 Wonders available right now only 11 are actually good enough and even then only a few of them are game changing.

It's some warped idea the developers have that in order for wonders to stand out there must we strong wonders and weak wonders to provide contrast but I find that completely untrue.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Well I think a lot of the early wonders tend to suffer from it more since it's easier to take cities. So let's run down the list, with my experience mostly on King and below. Also heavily influenced by the way I play.

Hanging Gardens-- Meh. You can even lose this on lower difficulties and 15% is really not much when housing is your main problem. Probably only useful if you're Qin. At least they give housing now. Population in general is not that important and just causes amneity problems; grow because of districts. And why not just expand? D

Oracle-- Sometimes gimmicky and insanely possible as something like Russia or if you're going religion. Buy those Great Writers. Impossible to get if Qin exists. Also very high opportunity cost. C+

Pyramids.-- Strong wonders as building charges are invaluable. Amazing with China or Aztecs. A- But also hard to get.

Stonehenge-- lol F

Colosseum-- Practically allows you to ignore amenities, exceptionally flexible. Lets you expand, conquer, or just build without worry. AI doesn't go for it. It also comes at a time where you've gotten a new government and autocracy's wonder bonus comes at the best time. It is more or less the perfect wonder. A++++ Would Build Again


Colossus-- It's pretty reasonably priced, and the trade route comes at a time where they aren't frequently avaiable. It's not that amazing, but it can do its job if you have harbors. C+

Great Library-- Generally only a thing if you're crapping out writers, such as Russia. Useless for actually giving science, so ironically a culture item and also heavily contested and expensive. D-

Great Lighthouse-- Ehhh, extra movement when ships already move so fast? D

Mahabodhi Temple-- I've never actually built this. N/A

Petra-- Very strong circumstantially, but hard to get. B-

Terracotta Army-- Seems even worse than its Civ 5 counterpart. Has gimmicky uses, especially if you're England and need to mass artifacts. Requring an encampment so early is obnoxious. Maybe Scythia or Japan has a go at it. N/A

Alhambra-- Usually don't have an encampment for this. Military policies are meh. N/A

Chichen Itza-- Great when it is, but only if you find a spot. Also heavily contested. B+

Hagia Sophia-- It's almost required for a religion victory. But religion sucks. Very useful for standing your religious ground though. B

Huey Teocalli-- How specific do you have to get? D Also required by a dead end tech.

Mont St. Michel-- Insanely overpowered if you're into gimmicks, pretty useless if you don't. A very lucky Kongo next to a religous neighbor is pretty sick with this. Floodplains requirement is obnoxious and sometimes makes it not even buildable. B+

Forbidden City-- Wildcard slot is the best. Sick as Greece A+++++ would build again

Great Zimbabwe-- The best wonder I never build. It's also a great way for spies to steal all your money N/A

Potala Palace-- Actually, I realized this is pretty good. I like using the extra slot to produce spies faster now. B+

Venetian Arsenal-- Although very cool, it's often more trouble than its worth unless you have many islands and need to crap ships out everywhere. And maybe you would have been better off building ships and just upgrading them later on. The main trouble is the somewhat picky placement of an IZ on the coast. Now IZs are not that great but putting them on the coast will generally be the worst, and ruining the nearby appeal is another issue. It's okay, but it seems dubious in many cases. If you built the oracle too and can snatch a GE that builds wonder, it is good. Too bad this doesn't apply to ships you buy. C-

Big Ben-- An economic card is always welcome. Twice the money (often enough to buy your great people is even better. A

Bolshoi Theater-- Supposedly for culture victories, but the GPs aren't really that great so you're kinda gambling for more civics. More impactful for non-culture goers looking to jump their culture. C+

Hermitage-- I build this a lot, and usually end up regretting it. Usually this is because I've won and have nothing better to do. If all your cities are full of works, then this is like adding an extra art musuem. But art musuems suck, even for culture victories. Oh, and it takes a river space F

Oxford University-- As mentioned above, the bonuses are inconsequential, and requires a lot of luck. Can be used for non-science victories that are behind in tech. D+

Ruhr Valley-- Why did they nerf this? Well unlike Oxford, more production is often welcome, but unless you have a GE ready to rush it, it seems kinda weird to sacrifice production to gain production so late in the game. This is pretty much the property of Germany. B-

Broadway-- Hey look, something that barely can compete with a project. Shame on you. F-

Cristo Redentor-- This is the wonder you build because you won already, and it makes the game end faster. C-

Eiffel Tower-- A very flexible wonder that actually helps you win. Sometimes if you get hilly coasts, the amount of seaside resources you may get is highly limited. This helps with your choices, especially if you get the appeal GP. Also helps with resorts in conquered lands too. And appeal/neighborhood is cool A

Estádio do Maracanã-- It's the modern era Colosseum. Problem is that it'll never finish unless you're deliberately prolonging the game. D-

Sydney Opera House-- It's the most expensive wonder in the game, comes really late, and must be built on the coast where there is usually less production. The results should be awesome right? Let's see. 8 culture when you're already nearing the end of the culture tree, and some musician points when they';re already coming in slower. Yea..... F

If I counted this right, I gave
A: 4
B: 6
C: 5
D: 6
F: 3
N/A: 4

Actually better than I suspected, considering the ones from IV had about half of them being useful. The late game ones sucking is just due the nature of the game but in this game it seems pretty bad.

 

[Victoria]

Great Lighthouse-- Ehhh, extra movement when ships already move so fast?

IF there is a navy, this makes all the difference, do not underestimate this. It is of the same value as the arsenal

Venetian Arsenal-- Although very cool,

Completely useless currently, you only need 2 caravels and 4-6 frigates to outsmart the AI's paltry provisions. To me it's equal with the lighthouse but pretty expensive in comparison and a lot later... how many ships do you have to build to break even? Also a good lighthouse player will beeline for that city on its completion, raiders and all.

Do people not get +1 naval movement is awesome vs another navy? I mean you can actually catch them and chase/shoot.... or always escape from the arsenal player and come back for first strike.

Hopefully both will be of more value after the patch

 

[Archon_Wing]

Well, as the game is atm, they don't build enough ships for naval tactics to really be a thing, so usually the point of ships is to take cities by sea, or destroy their defenses, or much later build carriers. In these cases mobility isn't that useful. But more ships means you can take more cities. And by the time you get carriers, time is limited, so getting an extra carrier or two out can be the difference between crushing your enemy or waiting a while. And nothing upgrades into carriers. I suppose you could buy them, which disappoints me the VA doesn't apply to that.

The other thing is that when the lighthouse appears there generally isn't as much opportunity for naval assaults wihen you're running around with galleys or quadriemes. I guess if it's still available later on, it could be a thing.

This might change if the AI builds ships, though, I just don't place a high value on outmaneuvering the AI atm. Maybe in a few years if they actually know how to fight.

But I guess I should make them closer....

 

[Rosty K]

For some of the N/A:

Ruhr in a spaceport city is a cool thing to have - speeds things up considerably. And you'll normally have time to build it while you're waiting for the space techs.

Mahabodhi - when going for the RV or just caring about the religion, two early apostles won't hurt at all - can grab extra beliefs before everybody else, or start the inquisition (which often is a much better way to spread your religion in your own cities than using missionaries - effectively you use AI missionaries instead). Or just convert a neighbor or two before they can do anything about their newly founded religions.

 

[Victoria]

...Ruhr...speeds things up considerably.

Not for fast science victories, check out the best GOTM science players games... no Ruhr
You are teching too slowly, the real problem comes down to building the spaceport fast enough, that's where the experts struggle. There is a thread in the tips and tricks section on how to do it fast... no Ruhr. It's discussed there.
The people that use that thread try to get science victories under 200 turns, you can do it, just need to be organise and very focused.

Ruhr is a bit like IZ, it takes too long to get back the production taken.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

My Late Game Wonder Ranking

Big Ben>Forbidden City>Eiffel Tower>Oxford University>Zimbabwe/Alhambra/Potala>other useless wonders ( like Ruhr or Opera House, or many others)

Zimbabwe is useful in Gotms since in those maps there're always a suitable place, all you need is to beeline Banking and have the wonder built before T100. But not for normal maps.

 

[Victoria]

Big Ben>Forbidden City>Eiffel Tower>Oxford University

Why Oxford Lily?