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Is philosophical stronger than financial?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Murky, Dec 11, 2007.

  1. Murky

    Murky Deity

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    I play a lot different leaders, usually at Prince or Monarch, just for fun. In BTS, it now seems like the philosophical trait is actually stronger than financial. This may be because of the increased importance of Great People points. I know that in games where I generate more GPs I advance quicker and can expand farther without having to worry too much about my economy crashing. There is generally more emphasis on food and production than gold. Since financial only seems to worry about gold it just isn't as strong as it used to be. Maybe they should have it give half cost on banks again?
     
  2. Zanttu

    Zanttu Pure Tactician

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    It's just impossible to compare traits like financial and philosophical, because it's so situational and depends on playing style. I usually run SE so obviously philosophical is the better one for my play.
     
  3. oyzar

    oyzar Have quit civ/forums

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    If you aim for quick military wins i can easily see philo beeing great as the early great people are quite powerful for their cost...
     
  4. madscientist

    madscientist RPC Supergenius

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    I think both are very powerful so I will say no. I also think Organized is a better overall trait than either but I know I am in the small minority there.
     
  5. Kennigit

    Kennigit proud 2 boxer

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    Run right, yes for early wars or domination/conquest victories. In the long haul for a spaceship, I think financial beats philosophical in terms of launch date. As for how easily you win the spacerace or your score in-game, you can weaken the other AI's more and have more population by using philosophical (by being able to pull calvary/curraisser/rifleish rush). On difficulties where wonder's don't slow you down (Monarchish below), philosophical catches up some to financial in a space race with settled GP.
     
  6. futurehermit

    futurehermit Deity

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    :thumbsup:
     
  7. Artifex1

    Artifex1 Warlord

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    How early?
     
  8. Nkot

    Nkot Chieftain

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    The answer to this question is very complicated.

    Statistically, I think it is fair to say that most people get somewhere around 25 GP when running an SE economy, which would benefit most under Philosophical. See here, Post #8. I am going to guess that 25 GP directly tranfers into 37500 beakers, at a rate of ~1500 beakers per GP for comparison purposes.

    So the question becomes, does a CE under Financial recieve an extra 37500 beakers worth of commerce as opposed to a CE without Financial? This is definitely very situational, especially in terms of how many cities and how much cottage-able land you have. If you have 10 cities and each one of those cities has 10 tiles that benefit from financial that would be +100 commerce a turn. Assuming that the average game ends after 400 turns, this means that 40000 extra commerce was generated that game as opposed to 37500 extra beakers generated from Philosophical.

    OK, so Financial is better than Philosophical? Not quite. For one, I think some people would disagree that one GP translates into ~1500 beakers. Secondly, 40000 extra commerce doesn't rely on any evidence; it is only an educated guess. Thirdly, the conversion of 1 commerce=1 beaker is disputable because in practicality, commerce becomes both gold and beakers. However, in defense, I would say that a CE without financial would generate enough gold to pay for itself and that any extra commerce from financial would be converted into beakers.

    Obviously, you can see that the answer to this question is very situational, and even if Financial is slightly better in most cases, the actual difference is ~2500 beakers, which really isn't that much for an entire game's worth of research (only 2 GP's worth). Also, considering the minuses of a Financial, such as easy pillageable tiles, and the pluses of Philosohical, such as easily converting to Production specialists, I think that the two are, in reality, quite balanced.
     
  9. Kennigit

    Kennigit proud 2 boxer

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    I'd say early enough to get philosophy, paper, and education popped, and a golden age. From those lightbulbs you can go to gunpowder and be able to get a curraiser rush. Or instead of popping, a settled scientist provides an extra little push toward the curraisser and calvary rush. Mainly I'm thinking of Snaaty's games as I don't utilize philosophical well.
     
  10. 50_dollar_bag

    50_dollar_bag Imitation Louis Vuitton

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    I'd love to have 100 commerce from turn 1. :p
     
  11. Diamondeye

    Diamondeye So Happy I Could Die

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    Yeah, slightly better. But you haven't counted beaker modifiers, which is usually everything from 25% to 75% in normal cities, more with academy.
    That's (around) 60000 beakers versus Phi's 37500. Boom, like that. :king:
     
  12. Gliese 581

    Gliese 581 Your average civ junkie

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    You don't get a 100 commerce from turn 1 as pointed out, but maybe you meant as an average.
    It would be fair to say that financial gains power the larger the map I think, both bc you will tend to have more cities and can thus work more cottages and bc early domination in general will be more difficult.
     
  13. King of Town

    King of Town Adventuring

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    I think the designers of the game kind of planned for GP's to rule the first half of the game and then post democracy and emancipation for CE to rule. There has to be a reason they put emancipation in there, it can't be just to annoy me out of caste system :)
     
  14. madscientist

    madscientist RPC Supergenius

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    This is pretty accurate except that in BTS GPs still rule because of the corporation issue. Founding Sid's or Cereal can really boost the number of specialists you run elevating the livespan of the SE. Granted the corps still help out a CE, but chances of getting a GP or the right one are lower.

    That's another issue between financial and Philosophical. Phil got a boost in BTS while financial stayed the same. So Philosophy in BTS is stronger than Philosophy in warlords while financial is equal in each.
     
  15. xanadux

    xanadux King

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    You can't take 25 GP in a SE and say that PHI gets the credit for all of them. It has been shown that PHI gives about a 40% increase in total GP assuming you don't have the Parthenon or Pacifism. So you are only getting 7 or 8 extra GP from the PHI trait. PHI does give earlier GP though, and there is a lot of benefit there, but it is hard to quantify. Additionally, if you are leveraging PHI by running more specialists, you are definitely working fewer tiles that would benefit from financial, adding to the complexity of any direct comparison.

    Two things are pretty much certain though ... you can't generate as many beakers over an entire game with an economy fueled entirely by Specialists as you can with extensive cottaging. The other is that cottaging can't come close to generating the early tech pace of a SE with lightbulbing. This is probably why I see most high level players using cottages AND lightbulbing regardless of leader traits.
     
  16. madscientist

    madscientist RPC Supergenius

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    You are correct, but with PHIL those last 6 or 7 GPs can usually come when the scientist specialist era is gone, and more likely yo be a GM or GE depending on specialists and thus being a bigger help for corps.
     
  17. futurehermit

    futurehermit Deity

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    Civ4 is a great game because the answers to these kinds of questions are always "it depends".

    Is philosophical stronger than financial...

    -If you are going for space race?
    -If you are going for domination?
    -If you get early game terrain with lots of snaky rivers?
    -If you get early game terrain with lots of coastal seafood?
    -If you are isolated?
    -If you have a number of good trading partners?
    -If you are playing single player?
    -If you are playing multiplayer?
    -If you are playing with aggressive AI?

    etc. etc. etc.

    My general rule of thumb is that SE > CE early, for domination and CE > SE late, for space race with a transition from SE to CE being ideal if you can pull it off and if you have the terrain that allows for it. If, if, if and if. And if.
     
  18. Zanttu

    Zanttu Pure Tactician

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    I couldn't agree more with you here. (And what makes pure SE better than pure CE is that early game > late game IMHO.)

    You forgot something. If not.

    :goodjob:
     
  19. futurehermit

    futurehermit Deity

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    :rotfl:

    Indeed!

    Yes, I also agree that early game > late game!
     
  20. gettingfat

    gettingfat Emperor

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    It also depends on the maps. I find that in BtS I frequently run into maps with way more plains than before. I just feel difficult to run cottages on plains.
     

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