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Is puppeting really cheaper than annexing with a courthouse?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by SicklyAlbatross, Jul 31, 2013.

  1. SicklyAlbatross

    SicklyAlbatross Chieftain

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    While the 4 gold maintenance for a courthouse seems daunting on a large scale I've been finding puppets so incredibly wasteful that they end up costing more in building maintenance than if I just controlled them myself, at least I can build the bare minimum and then set them to convert hammers into gold. I visibly cringe every time I see "work has started on a water mill" flash up on the screen.

    At best puppeting seems to be best at providing a temporary bandaid while the city is still in revolt, or if annexing everything and building courthouses would cause to much strife during the construction. But I always hear of people using massive puppet empires, and I really don't know how people manage it, TP spam only seems to go so far for me (and it looks ugly).
     
  2. Arachnofiend

    Arachnofiend Perturbed Pugilist

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    Puppet empires are strong because social policies are strong. That's... pretty much it, really. Policies are that good.
     
  3. SicklyAlbatross

    SicklyAlbatross Chieftain

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    Honestly I'm finding the policy penalty is pretty much non-existant now, take representation, build culture buildings and stock them with great works and you'll never be hurting for policies. Hell I made a culture city with the guilds and running culture specialists too. I'd love to see the math but I'd put money on at least being able to break even.
     
  4. Resipsa

    Resipsa King

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    Shows us then annex cities and prove you can squire social policies just as fast
     
  5. Ra's Head

    Ra's Head Chieftain

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    Well, it is a trade off. Remember that Annexing also increases Great Person costs, which can add up over a game. With the right policies and infrastructure, annexing can be very effective. Particularly with Autocracy. Generally, though, puppetting is the way to go at first, since the puppet generally builds happiness and gold buildings first. Later, when they start building weird junk you can annex them.

    SP costs are down, which I suspect makes it easier to annex and not fall behind, but I don't know the exact figures right now.
     
  6. SicklyAlbatross

    SicklyAlbatross Chieftain

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    I had no idea about the GP cost increase, I didn't see that anywhere in the civlopedia.


    Thanks for the constructive comment.
     
  7. GrantBud

    GrantBud Chieftain

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    I tend to puppet cities in a few conditions:
    1) When I want them to produce gold anyway. Examples are when the city is mostly built up already with lots of trading posts and low production. In this case there isn't much point in annexing.
    2) I need some critical social policies. Usually after getting those policies I'll annex.
    3) When I can't afford the temporary happiness hit.
     
  8. GrantBud

    GrantBud Chieftain

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    Also, GP doesn't increase, gold age cost does, and in my opinion only so slightly and it rarely matters unless you're playing as Persia or perhaps Brazil, and even then, I don't think its a huge deal, since spawning great artists is much easier now.
     
  9. CornPlanter

    CornPlanter Emperor

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    It was a constructive comment. So far we have only your words. Your strategy may be viable but we need more than words, right?
     
  10. Resipsa

    Resipsa King

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    Representation only cuts 3.33% of the added social policy costs per city instead of 5% so in the end with all things being equal pre BNW was 10% increase per City, now its 6.67% that doesn't seem like a big deal and its not early on, until you get into your ideology tenents, the increase between your policies will increase by 25-30 turns between a 2 city empire with 10 puppets and a 12 city empire.
     
  11. Ra's Head

    Ra's Head Chieftain

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    Wait, annexing doesn't increase the cost of great people? I thought the tooltip on the annex/puppet screen said it would slow your acquisition of great people. Sorry if I was totally wrong on this, I maybe read that tooltip too quickly.
     
  12. Arachnofiend

    Arachnofiend Perturbed Pugilist

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    It does say that, the tooltip is wrong.
     
  13. Hieschen

    Hieschen Warlord

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    Without doing any research, feeling wise that just does not make sense. GP were always function of GP produced before, no impact on number of cities... It would not make any sense in my opinion that GP get spawned slower because you have more cities.
     
  14. Fire0rb

    Fire0rb Warlord

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    Yep the tooltip is wrong. It does not change the overall costs of GPs but maybe the game tends to believe that the puppets will create many Great Merchants which would lead to a increased GP cost ;)

    On the other hand the biggest thing about puppets is in G&K they gave some output of science / culture / gold for nothing. Your Policy costs did not increase nor your science costs.

    In BNW the puppets also increased the tech costs which make annexing a bit more viable because they need to produce some more science to balance out the tech cost increase (at least big cities).
    Still the policy increase is kind of high so you need to choose wisely which cities you want to annex and build up on your own.
     
  15. Monthar

    Monthar Deity

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    Yes, annexing increases the cost of the next policy by 10% per city. However, puppets have a culture and science penalty of 25% and are typically slow to get around to building the culture buildings. Plus since they are all on gold focus they usually have low production so it takes a long time to actually build the culture buildings when they do get around to them.

    If you founded a religion and have pagodas, mosques, and/or cathedrals to faith buy, these will boost both the culture and happiness in those cities, if you spread your religion to them and buy those buildings.

    If you're going all warmongery with the Order ideology, you can get free courthouses with Iron Curtain (which is level 3 btw), provided you either choose annex or raze from the pup-up when you first capture a city after takign the policy. Then you'd have courthouses with no maintenance cost.

    If instead you go with Autocracy, at level 2 is Police State which adds more happiness to the courthouses and makes them build twice as fast.
     
  16. PDMX

    PDMX Warlord

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    What is your source for GP costs thing? I had a game with 20 cities and had no problem to produce 13 scientists. My experience is, that the costs increase by 100 points each time a GP is born, as usually.

    Puppeting is not a good idea anymore, because every new city must produce enough science, to overcome the 5% science penalty of the additional city. I usually annex the puppets as soon as I can and instantly buy science buildings.
     
  17. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

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    Annexing does not increase GP costs.

    "Move along, nothing to see here."
     
  18. LiviCar

    LiviCar Chieftain

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    Representation says: Each city you found will increase the culture Culture cost of policies by 33% less than normal (not 3.33%).

    I think the extra Social Policy cost is quite a difference if you annex, and like others have said, the SP benefits can be quite powerful depending on the timing of when you acquire more cities.
     
  19. Ra's Head

    Ra's Head Chieftain

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    Dang nab it! I have blindly believed that tooltip this whole time! Sorry for the bad information, everyone.
     
  20. attorneyatlol

    attorneyatlol Chieftain

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    I think the limiting factor is how many Great Works you can generate. If you can annex, build culture buildings and slot them with Great Works, then you'll probably come out ahead culture-wise. But you can only generate so many Great Works in a game. And culture buildings generate next to no culture w/o Great Works slotted.

    As far as religious culture-generating buildings go, you have to weigh the cost of spending that faith on those buildings (just to offset the penalty) vs. using that faith on, e.g., late game Great Persons.
     

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