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Is Religion Necessary?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Makonnen5, Sep 9, 2010.

  1. Makonnen5

    Makonnen5 Chieftain

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    If founding a religion in civ 4 a must for success? I have read about all the great things it does(from Sulla's Tutorial) but im just starting out and im trying to re-learn concepts from civ 3 that are new in civ 4 so im kind of shying away from religion until have it down. I am playing on prince difficulty btw.
     
  2. Esham

    Esham Chieftain

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    Its not necessary for some reasons. Mainly if you don't found one you can adopt someone else's to make diplomatic relations better rather then founding your own and adopting it and getting negative relations for being a heathen. The shrines for religion from GP can be a very good economy booster. But you can just conquer someone elses if you want.

    On the other hand if you can get an early religion and spread it to your neighbours it can be beneficial as well.

    Basically, don't go out of your way to get a religion but if you do spread it like mad or adopt a neighbours to keep things cosher.
     
  3. Derakon

    Derakon Prince

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    It's actually generally recommended that you not found a religion. You usually want to be the same religion as some of the other AIs, since it can be a powerful help in diplomacy. Almost every AI has a strong friendly modifier for "We care for our brothers and sisters of the faith" which can make it much easier to do tech trades, gang up on other AIs, and so on. However, if you found your own religion, then odds are you aren't going to be the same religion as everyone else -- unless you dedicate a lot of your production capabilities to making missionaries. Generally it's easier to let some AI found the religion and spend the hammers on making missionaries, while you reap the diplomatic (and happiness/culture) benefits of the religion.

    The main reason to found a religion is so you can build the holy site with a Great Prophet. These sites get +1 gold per city that has the religion. However, if you're willing to get into an interfaith war, you can take over the city with the holy site and reap the profits without having to spend the prophet. :)

    For what it's worth, you can also outright ignore religion on the earlier difficulties. You won't get any diplomatic modifiers, either positive or negative, for your lack of religion. Thus no useful boosts from buddies, but you also won't be on the wrong end of crusades. You will be effectively locked out of Theocracy and Organized Religion, though -- they're only useful if you have a state religion.
     
  4. plasmacannon

    plasmacannon Emperor

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    The one many people get is Confucianism, because, everyone goes for "Code of Laws", eventually, for the courthouses.
    Religion is useful for Organized Religion (+25% faster building of structures) and for Theocracy +2xp for new units. Depending on whether in peace or wartime.
    And as mentioned, for peaceful diplomacy with a neighbor of the same religion.
    You can keep the peace though, with most empires, by abstaining from religion.
     
  5. Derakon

    Derakon Prince

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    Yes, I should clarify: founding a religion is just fine. However, usually you a) don't want to dedicate early research to getting Buddhism, Hinduism, or Judaism (that research would be better-spent on unlocking worker techs), and b) don't want to convert to any religion you found.
     
  6. Makonnen5

    Makonnen5 Chieftain

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    thanks for the replies. i think i will stay away from religion for now even though i must admit its an amazingly deep new feature from what i have seen and heard. i think ill focus on grasping concepts like worker techs and the like. i keep building roads and then wonder why im not seeing an increase in gold lol. though i do love the worker tech concept:)
     
  7. plasmacannon

    plasmacannon Emperor

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    When you are comfortable with the rest of the game, getting a religion on easier levels (the one you are on and lower) isn't going to slow you down as much as on higher levels where every tech matters.
    So, that would be the time to enjoy the richness it the religions being added to Civ4 vs none in Civ3.

    Which reminds me, since you are coming from a Civ3 background, you will want to look at the Holy Roman Empire's Unique building, the "Rathaus", and also the Civic "State Property".
    You might find them valuable.
    :)
     
  8. Derakon

    Derakon Prince

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    Roads do three things:

    * They speed up movement, so long as the road is coaligned or neutral (you can't use enemy roads unless you have the Commando promotion)
    * They give you access to resources. Let's say that there's corn in your capital's BFC. That corn, once you have a farm on it, will be worth a lot of food. Additionally, all your cities with access to that corn will get +1 health if they have a granary. But to get access, there must be a road from the corn to the city (or you need to have access via a trade network, e.g. along coastlines once you tech Sailing)
    * They give access to trade with foreign nations. If there's a continuous road from your cities to the AI's cities, and you have Open Boarders with them, you can trade with them. Foreign trade routes are more lucrative than domestic ones.
     
  9. G-Max

    G-Max Deity

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    If you start with Mysticism, then founding one of the early religions is often worth it. Otherwise, don't bother.
     
  10. Alki

    Alki Prince

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    I don't go the found a religion route. I normally just try to take the holy city of the world's dominant religion.
     
  11. CornPlanter

    CornPlanter Emperor

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    Good job. If you pursued religion-finding route you would still be playing on noble at best :goodjob:
     
  12. Makonnen5

    Makonnen5 Chieftain

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    this game is so amazingly deep that its actually kind of scary. ill admit it is alot to get used to but its coming gradually.
     
  13. Notenoughtrebs

    Notenoughtrebs Chieftain

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    This sums it up pretty well I think. Nothing wrong with founding a religion if it looks like it will be popular (Buddhism or Hinduism). I have found that up to monarch you can get often get Hinduism if you research for it immediately. Then chop out Stonehenge, wait for the Great Prophet and found the shrine. Sweet.
     
  14. Cicerosaurus

    Cicerosaurus Emperor

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    I always try and hog religions for the economics that the shrine delivers, and the capacity to build such things as the Temple of Artemis. Also the happiness comes in very handy from temples.

    Then again, the posters above are far better players than I am :)
     
  15. Crocutrax

    Crocutrax Chieftain

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    I absolutely love hogging all the religions, but then again I struggle on Noble difficulty. However a city that is the holy city of two religions is quite nice indeed in my own opinion.

    I guess in the end, its up to personal opinion and how much you want to win.
     
  16. Cicerosaurus

    Cicerosaurus Emperor

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    Yeah- to me it is a game to be enjoyed with a beer and a break from doing my manly chores.

    I could never be bothered going into the coding to find out if I'll get three more points from building my city next to a blue bummed whale.
     
  17. Danelius90

    Danelius90 Hunter (of vegetables)

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    Different religions become dominant in various games (yeah, obvious), so sometimes getting an early religion is good because you get the shrine and you may well get the diplo bonus too. But you might not. Allowing the game to unfold a little is helpful at times :)
    I find though on noble you can really get ahead - but like obscenely far ahead. You get a gold boost and a high research rate, get a HUGE tech lead and found more religions and thus get further ahead. I had a recent game where I ended up finding 4 religions, which spread, I had so much gold I had 100% investment in research/culture etc the whole game :D Completely dominated. But felt like a cheap victory.

    So the gold boost can be welcome but I'm gonna go for some different victories - stuff religion :)
     
  18. Ataxerxes

    Ataxerxes Deity

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    The religious victory is a cheesy one, true. I've actually gotten a religious victory accidentally.

    Although different religions become dominant in different games, most Civs will wind up being Buddhist, Hindu or Jewish. The others come so much later that very few civs follow them. On standard maps, it's often the Hindu bloc vs. the Buddhist bloc in my games. Some of the leaders go for founding religions, such as Izzy. It's not unusual for her to found 3 religions. But she usually keeps the first one.
     
  19. CornPlanter

    CornPlanter Emperor

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    It is nice ofcourse when you see only benefits but no investments. If you try to calculate investments, and think of one or two alternate ways of using them, then compare returns, you see your religion city in an entirely different light :)

    Not saying that it's always useless or always inferior. But close. And thats not a matter of opinion but a matter of cold hard maths :) Unless ofcourse you dont go for efficiency but for so called "casual" fun or roleplaying. Then you can be perfectly happy with inferior ways as long as they are "fun" :)

    Then again, I usually end up having holy city of a widespreaded religion anyway... with investments only into a few axeman :) as opposed to inferior tech path, the great priest, 50 missionaries, possible diplo issues, etc...
     
  20. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy The trees are actually quite lovely.

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    Gonna have to go with CornPlanter on this one. Even if you do start with Mysticism, founding an early religion is rarely worth the effort and possible diplomatic headaches. Now if you are going to generate an early great prophet for the shrinegold and autospread by say, building Stonehenge or being Egypt and running their obelisk priests, then maaaaybe it's worth doing.

    It's pretty exhaustively covered in other posts if you care to search, but generally speaking the amount of effort you must expend to found, shrine, and spread a dominant religion is almost never going to be worth the effort. You can oftentimes come by the same benefit by investing hammers in some axes or swords/cats. Much lower opportunity costs all around with that method.

    I say early religion above since later religions are often a non issue on the global scale. They can be nice to have for culture/happy issues once you bust into the free religion period, but by that point the AIs are going to have either deeply entrenched state religions or are going to be going FR themselves. Either way, the almost total lack of autospread on late religions makes them a total P.I.T.A. if you want them to be important.

    All this being said, I have had a ton of fun running a religious economy and going the "AP Cheese(to quote TMIT)" route myself.
     

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