Is religion worth it?

[Silvtown]

My last three games on deity have been attempts at getting a religion with Poland and Spain, and I've been getting crushed.

Not only do I not succeed in getting the second or third religion, but I'm so vulnerable to attack that everything falls apart. In two of the games, I was almost there, but my holy site got pillaged at the worst possible time.

One of my big complaints is the AI using patronage right when you're getting close, which usually bumps up the cost of the next prophet. Then, you have to keep pushing for religion while everything else falls further behind.

On lower difficulties, religion is viable. I had an immortal game with Russia where I faith purchased cossacks and quickly took the map.

 

[ShinigamiKenji]

In my opinion, the only civs that can consistently get a religion (apart from Arabia, obviously) are Russia, Japan and Aztecs.

• Russia get Lavras, which are half-cost and provides 2 GPP.
• Japan has a weaker Holy Site, but it's still half-cost. You may need to sacrifice your Pantheon for Divine Spark though (not that bad if going culture or science).
• Aztecs because, well, they can do almost everything with those captured Builders, except building wonders.

Is it optimal? Maybe not, though a Jesuit Education CV surely is interesting.

 

[gettingfat]

I always conquer my closest neighbor asap. If its cities build holy sites, I'll try for religion. Otherwise I don't care unless I play Russia or Japan.

 

[Brian Hum]

You have to think of religion (like everything in Civ) in terms of opportunity cost and generally religions is just too high. If you're playing AI (who love to go for religion) you have to make early Holy Sites to get the GPP rolling and the district system means you're seriously delaying your vital districts. Science and internal trade routes are simply far, FAR more important. On top of that the GPP is worthless after getting a prophet so your Holy Site loses a big piece of it's benefit (GPP should additionally be currency the same as faith). If you decide to get one of the last religions, the beliefs left are generally crap.

Religious passive spread is slower than Civ 5 so that delays any beliefs that reward you for spreading and if you active spread; human players will simply kill your spreaders. The pantheons and beliefs are a little weaker than 5. Of course there's a few that are exceptions (Arabia gets the last prophet free so they don't have to invest anything until mid game and it's just one Holy Site). Units are a tad too expensive to faith purchase also.

In short, religion is weaker than in Civ 5. Using religion makes the game more interesting and difficult but in terms of meta, the game is much easier to win with science or conquest. It's generally better to just grab a quick pantheon (despite religion being weak, there are some very good pantheons. Use the God King policy card early) and move on. Which is sad because it's a fun aspect of gameplay.

 

[ShakaKhan]

Here's the way that it should work, IMO...

The other great people categories (merchants, scientists, etc.) have different great people that are only allowed during different eras that provide special empire-wide bonuses for the remainder of the game. The prophet class of great people should have 5 or 6 or 7 (depending on how many religions can be founded) great prophets that are designated as classical (maybe classical to medieval) era great prophets whose sole function is to found a religion. Once you have unlocked one of these prophets and founded your religion, you continue to generate great prophet points and can gain the great prophets of later eras who provide empire-wide bonuses that are similar to great people of different classes. Some of the great prophet bonuses might be:

+1 culture and faith from all pastures in all cities where the religion is dominant (or +2 of each but just from cows)
one extra diplomatic policy card slot if your religion is dominant in your cities
one extra amenity in all cities where the religion is dominant

and so on. Someone who is more versed in theology than I am would have to come up with which historical figures should be the great prophets and what bonuses they would provide.

 

[unpossible251]

i'd say religion can absolutely be worth it even in a non religious victory.

the right panthenon can be a game winner - get lady of reeds and marshes up when your homeland is all floodplain and its all downhill. but any panthenon can help.

the good things about a complete religion are the faith for purchasing essential great people, amplifying your strengths (aiming for culture vic? reliquiaries and mt thomas) or compensating for your map weakness (too rocky? feed the world will give some pop).

 

[Depravo]

Here's the way that it should work, IMO...
...

I really like this. In fact, it's probably a matter of time before they re-do the system along these lines. The GPP mechanic right now seems a bit rough-hewn, possibly rushed, as others have remarked.

It also opens the door to having L Ron Hubbard as a Great Prophet, which they should do for lulz. I leave it to others to decide what the unique bonus might be.

 

[Joch]

I don't agree Religion is not worth it. It requires a bit of planning at the start, but the only base requirement is one Holy Site District, while the Religion you found will provide bonuses each and every turn.

 

[MaximusPlatypus]

Play as Arabia, rush Stirrups, and science game in general; take out everyone near you with Mamluks. It's almost guaranteed you'll get quite a few holy sites for your efforts. And for those saying late founder beliefs are quite bad... not necessarily. The worst one you will get is Zen Meditation which will still help you quite a bit the whole game.

 

[ShinigamiKenji]

The thing is, what's the price for getting a religion? What do you have to forgo in the early game to secure one?

Most of the time, it's either Settlers or military. Given that both are quite important for expansion, and expansion is the key to victory as of now, delaying them will ultimately delay your whole game, for a few bonuses that religion gets. Sure, some beliefs may be good, and sometimes going for a religion is worth it, but overall religion is quite weak.

i'd say religion can absolutely be worth it even in a non religious victory.

the right panthenon can be a game winner - get lady of reeds and marshes up when your homeland is all floodplain and its all downhill. but any panthenon can help.

the good things about a complete religion are the faith for purchasing essential great people, amplifying your strengths (aiming for culture vic? reliquiaries and mt thomas) or compensating for your map weakness (too rocky? feed the world will give some pop).

Pantheons are excluded from this discussion. They're almost free, in the sense that without any true commitment you'll still get one. The Reliquaries strategy is a good one, and may be an exception to the rule. However, many times it's not enough to secure you a victory, in which case you still need Museums

Play as Arabia, rush Stirrups, and science game in general; take out everyone near you with Mamluks. It's almost guaranteed you'll get quite a few holy sites for your efforts. And for those saying late founder beliefs are quite bad... not necessarily. The worst one you will get is Zen Meditation which will still help you quite a bit the whole game.

Arabia don't really count for the discussion, for the same reason as pantheons. You only need to wait for it to come, without any investment at all, except for a Holy Site (which can be built well after the early game, which is the most crucial phase).

 

[Midori]

It's very helpful as Japan or Spain to get crusade, which turns samurai and conquistadors into unstoppable beasts that bring down strong cities fast. For Russia and Arabia it's more a matter of why not. For the others it's very situational, but I often don't bother.

 

[ShakaKhan]

It also opens the door to having L Ron Hubbard as a Great Prophet, which they should do for lulz. I leave it to others to decide what the unique bonus might be.

I was thinking of Joseph Smith off the top of my head. For lulz, they could include Marshall Applewhite, though that might be a little too controversial, same reason why Hitler will never be a playable leader in civilization games.

 

[Joch]

here is an advantage of how useful Religion can be. In my current Japan game, I built a Holy site early.

-with the Pantheon, I chose +1 production from fishing boats, of which I now have about 20 late game;

-in my religion, I chose +1 production from every follower of which I now have 40 late game;

so it is an early game investment which then provides bonuses each and every turn thereon.

 

[PendragonWRB]

I feel getting a Religion is quite worth it, at least on Emperor. My current start was very well mountained and I had a pair of cities with both having +3/+4 Academies and Holy Sites. The ever growing tithe I took paid for my ever growing military. I also didn't rush religion, just took my time and was able to get it pretty easily. Arabia was not in my game. Like anything it's situational.

Certainly not worth it or even possible on Deity, not sure about Immortal as I backed down from that with the Aussie Summer patch.

 

[Depravo]

here is an advantage of how useful Religion can be. In my current Japan game, I built a Holy site early.

-with the Pantheon, I chose +1 production from fishing boats, of which I now have about 20 late game;

-in my religion, I chose +1 production from every follower of which I now have 40 late game;

so it is an early game investment which then provides bonuses each and every turn thereon.

If I had the time and inclination to restart the Germany game mentioned above (Immortal) and just forgot about religion, about the same time I conceded defeat I could have expected to have had settled at least 2 more cities (at my rivals' expense) and not been a technological / cultural backwater due to blowing absolutely everything on what was a losing proposition.

My Holy City only had the religion for 3 turns before the Taoists hammered it with apostles. I can hear you all out there saying 'kill the apostles then', but I was already fighting another civ and was losing ground to barbs. Again, if I hadn't blown production on a holy site, shrine, temple, Prayers and all the other stuff I could have had an actual army.

Situational, like the other chap said, and I'm sure the payoff can be huge but it's a hell of a gamble early in the game.

 

[PendragonWRB]

Well that's what makes Civ interesting. If religion was ALWAYS the best path it would be boring. I always skipped it on Immortal (except Arabia) but I thought I could get away with it on Emperor, and I did.

 

[lindsay40k]

What are the prospects of conquering your way to founding a religion? If a neighbour builds Stonehenge or gets a solid Pantheon whilst you invest in an army, it's not a long shot in Civ V.

 

[MaximusPlatypus]

Poland, Spain, and Russia should always go for it. Arabia obviously has it, but imo Arabia's best victory type (besides domination) is Science. Japan can go for it, but isn't gimped without it.

 

[ShinigamiKenji]

What are the prospects of conquering your way to founding a religion? If a neighbour builds Stonehenge or gets a solid Pantheon whilst you invest in an army, it's not a long shot in Civ V.

Depends on how much you conquer before the Prophets are gone. If most of your neighbors are religious (Spain, India etc), it may be feasible.

Poland, Spain, and Russia should always go for it. Arabia obviously has it, but imo Arabia's best victory type (besides domination) is Science. Japan can go for it, but isn't gimped without it.

I'd also add India in your list. Many of their bonuses are faith-related.

 

[MaximusPlatypus]

I'd also add India in your list. Many of their bonuses are faith-related.

Indeed, forgot about them. I've never played them, but that seems to be the thing to do with them.