Is religion worth it?

[No-Man]

You don't need a religion to do theocracy faith buying, do you? Or has that changed?

Indeed, I thought faith buying was better without a religion, as you don't need to spend faith on missionaries etc instead?

You don't need a religion, just a theocratic government. But if one of the beliefs on your religion (nihilism, in my case) is Crusades, which gives your units +10 strength when fighting on a foreign city that follows your religion, you have a very good motivation for buying apostles or missionaries. And if you have Work Ethic, which gives every city a +1% production per citizen of that city following your religion, you kinda want the inquisitors. Also, with the Simultaneum policy card (religious buildings double their yield), you can easily have enough faith for both religious and military units.

 

[Abraxis]

Citation needed.

Well there are plenty of well known strategies such as Japan with Divine Spark and Jesuit Education having to spend very little production in order to set up a culture infrastructure. Or getting Reliquaries with Mont St Michel and later Cristo Redentor, which is extremely potent.

And plenty I have not seen discussed, such as Norway using Feed the World, which makes your Stave Church generate food equal to its faith. You put that thing next to some forests and you're generating up to 10 free food (maybe get Gurdwara as well for 12). That will pay for 5 (or 6) citizens to work in any district generating secondary yields without sacrificing growth, or allow them to all focus on high production tiles. It basically removes food as a factor from your game as you instead build your economy with faith as a foundation. Also allowing you to place cities anywhere so long as there are forests. Also allowing you to shift economic focus between secondary yields as needed.

 

[HF22]

@No-Man

Which confirms faith buying is not an advantage of religion, & just leaves religions with the fairly weak buffs associated with beliefs*.

Plowing resources & faith into getting a religion, then spreading it, is hard to justify at higher levels. Just using the faith to rush buy a couple extra great people would likely get better buffs.

* For example, +10 combat strength sounds like a good buff. But the AI is so bad at combat, you are already invincible, so whats the point?

 

[Kyro]

Definitely yes in the context of having an enjoyable game. If you're aiming for speed in science/domination probably not.

Work Ethic is by far my favourite. +20% production in a 20+ population city by late game makes a huge difference given how important production is in the game. You can net almost any great person or wonder you want. In comparison Communism gives only 10% at the start. Add both and Ruhr Valley and you could be looking at +200 production cities.

Defender of the Faith makes you immune to AI aggression with minimal military units. Saves you production and gold that way. Makes the game a lot more enjoyable if you're a pacifist.

Reliquaries is very strong for Cultural Victories if you manage to build Cristo Ridento and Mont St. Michel.

Papal Primacy makes following City States yields 50% stronger. That +6 from 2 Industrial City states for each city is very strong if you manage to do it.

I don't usually pick any other beliefs, these are too strong to miss.

 

[Felis Renidens]

I tend to like Zen Meditation as extra amenity per city is an extra 3 pop in each city that I don't need to entertain and that don't eat luxuries. Less notifications of City X needs amenities is more fun.
For the same reason I like things that give me housing although I suspect the religious building is not that good because it needs a holy site.
I also pick holy order to be able to push away AI religious units (and convert them if they persist).
Tithe is nice for extra income.
Since I play mostly for fun and not for efficiency and at a low difficulty I almost always will get a religion (the exception is Kongo) and can have fun with it.

 

[View619]

Religion is good if you have a strategy and can pick your bonuses to support it. If you just want one as an afterthought, then they are not worth the opportunity cost.

 

[No-Man]

@No-Man

Which confirms faith buying is not an advantage of religion, & just leaves religions with the fairly weak buffs associated with beliefs*.

Plowing resources & faith into getting a religion, then spreading it, is hard to justify at higher levels. Just using the faith to rush buy a couple extra great people would likely get better buffs.

* For example, +10 combat strength sounds like a good buff. But the AI is so bad at combat, you are already invincible, so whats the point?

Yeah, it's not necessary to have a religion to spam some cool military units, and it is more efficient not to buy apostles, missionaries or inquisitors, and save faith for great people. But knowing how methodical deity games are, to be able to do things that you wouldn't normally do is just plain fun. I really enjoyed having a religion, specially one as useful as the one I had.

 

[Cedbird77]

If I had the time and inclination to restart the Germany game mentioned above (Immortal) and just forgot about religion, about the same time I conceded defeat I could have expected to have had settled at least 2 more cities (at my rivals' expense) and not been a technological / cultural backwater due to blowing absolutely everything on what was a losing proposition.

My Holy City only had the religion for 3 turns before the Taoists hammered it with apostles. I can hear you all out there saying 'kill the apostles then', but I was already fighting another civ and was losing ground to barbs. Again, if I hadn't blown production on a holy site, shrine, temple, Prayers and all the other stuff I could have had an actual army.

Situational, like the other chap said, and I'm sure the payoff can be huge but it's a hell of a gamble early in the game.

Yes your right it can hammer you in some situations. You have to really plan for what your missing setting up Religious infrastructure and going for it.

But it can really pay off big time

 

[HF22]

But knowing how methodical deity games are, to be able to do things that you wouldn't normally do is just plain fun. I really enjoyed having a religion, specially one as useful as the one I had.

Totally agree the game is more fun with religion.

Indeed one of the annoying things about Civ, & not just this version, is strategy often consists in what game mechanics should be ignored. And yet then you feel like you are missing out on much of the entertainment.

Balance improvements to religions, or just making warmongering harder so belief buffs matter more, would be welcome.

 

[ShinigamiKenji]

A cultural game can greatly profit from religion, either if you use Reliquaries or Jesuit Education. You only need production for Holy Sites and Theatre Squares if you get Theocracy.

 

[Japper007]

It's not worth it imho, it ties up too much production at the time you need it most (i.e. the early game). Sure the bonuses are nice once you do get one but you basically give up on getting more cities, builders and units, which are the key to getting a strong early game lead. A holy site+a shrine+a faith city project is almost the same cost as two settlers or a builder and a settler (and you'll usually need more than just one HS to actually have a chance of grabbing a great prophet on Diety).

I think it'd be way better if everyone eventually could found a religion, most of the good stuff would of course go to the one who invests most into religion but it'd mean that you could invest in religion once all the important stuff is done.

 

[HF22]

A cultural game can greatly profit from religion, either if you use Reliquaries or Jesuit Education. You only need production for Holy Sites and Theatre Squares if you get Theocracy.

There is no doubt a religion can contribute to a culture victory. My question however is if its the most efficient way of getting those tourists.

I'm open to arguments that it is, but even in a peaceful game, a few more early settlers seems a better investment.