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Is Rome OP?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by row2infinity, Oct 15, 2018.

  1. Trav'ling Canuck

    Trav'ling Canuck Deity

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    Good summary. Most important to me are that (a) the bonuses come early, and (b) they're passive, so they help you no matter how you're playing. Not sure they're in aggregate any better than most Civs, but these two points make Rome an easy civ to do well with.

    That said, I'm not sure why the AI doesn't do better with Rome. Possibly it puts too much production into Legions and then doesn't get much benefit out of them.
     
  2. Frostburn

    Frostburn Warlord

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    Alex #24, i'm shocked by how low he is
     
  3. myclan

    myclan Prince

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    I'm not a very experienced players so I will make a lot of mistake especially when I'm not used to what my game is happening now. And I want to share the game I'm just playing.

    I start with a fractal map, there are two big inland sea on the continent so the land becomes thin but long. When I built my 2nd city, it seems that Russia has been land-locked by me with just 2 cities.

    Because of the strange map, I can't find 3 CS, can't discover foreign continent, try very hard to use my slinger to catch up with a barbarian scout and kill it, but unable to clean a camp, nor killing 3 barbarian.

    But I have 1 horse both in my capital and 2nd city. I go for horseback riding. Hard research military tradition for +50% policy.

    Finally I decide to hard research BW, but with iron not on good spot. So I just don't feel like hard research IW.

    And I'm just going to use horseman to finish Russia with battering ram. Not Rome at all.

    Though can't get most of the inspiration. Every city built with a monument boost the Civic well and I don't feel I'm falling behind seriously. I think this is the most valuable part of Rome.

    I do want to enjoy the Bath, but what can I do if I just have to build a no-water city also without any moutain.
     
  4. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    Trajan #11
    Monty#12
    Gilgamesh #19

    All Below Netherlands....

    Topkek I'm sorry, but you could probably list the civs in random order and get a better list.
     
  5. Trav'ling Canuck

    Trav'ling Canuck Deity

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    I don't know how you would put together a reasonable list for single player. In the hands of an experienced player, any civ can easily beat the Deity AI. The only real risk is that you lose to an early Warrior rush, so you could rank the "best civs" by whether they have any advantage that would allow you to be more likely to survive an ancient era rush.

    Other than that, you could rank them by theoretical speed to victory. In that case you end up with four distinct lists for each of science, culture, religious, and domination wins. And each of those lists wouldn't be much more than a random assortment, because no sane person would play enough games as each civ trying for each victory type to collect enough data to provide much evidence for which civ is more likely to win more quickly. Even if you did so, all your data would go out the window with the next balance patch / rules change.

    I will, however, state that if you play peacefully, it's quite reasonable to rank the Netherlands and their early bonus adjacency benefits quite highly. It's boring and passive but can add up over time and shorten science and cultural games a fair bit, I should think.
     
  6. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    In Civ 6, for better or for worse, the metric won't be able to win (even a blank civ could win), but rather have advantages for a more efficient win. Of course, even that is completely subjective, but there is some degree of objectivity; ie. Minas Geares will probably be more useful than Sea Dog even if there are cases where it may not be true. And stuff like hills bias is probably an advantage, as well as having 28 strength warriors at the start. Nothing can ever be 100% certain, but I can probably say with certainity that Rome.will do better than many civs given a number of equal starts and can't imagine many where they would be anything less than that. I also think a player that can regularly beat King could beat deity with a select few civs and that would be proof of OPness, but I guess skill floor tests are problematic.

    There's always going to be better choices than others in any game. We can argue the hows and ifs and the lists may differ from person to person but the basic idea still stands. But if we establish, say, the chances of defeat usually come early, that would mean that civs with an early combat bonus are going to be better as they reduce the chance of that happening at all.

    I also agree there's multiple criteria. However, if they're not specified, I assume it's going to be a generic randomly generated map where everything goes. I think playing peacefully, for example, is more of a user made thing, whereas Science Victory is an objective part of the game, for example. Though the list seems to really undersell early advantages of which I think they are huge, so I guess it's hard to say what criteria was being used.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2018
    Trav'ling Canuck likes this.
  7. Trav'ling Canuck

    Trav'ling Canuck Deity

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    The problem with the skill floor test is how does the player win on King? Some approaches will translate well to particular civs, others less so.

    I agree that "who has the advantages for a more efficient win" is a reasonable criteria and that without stating the criteria, it's hard to create any type of ranking. But even if the ranking is "quickest victory on average on random maps", I think (a) you need to specify a victory type, and (b) you're going to get into an academic debate with little hope of having sufficient data to confirm whether early bonus A has a greater impact on win times than later bonuses B + C combined.
     
  8. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    Well, it's why IMO skill floor tests are useless in this regards. There's a common line of thought that some choices are OP because they are very newbie friendly, aka allow a player to punch way above their weight but I don't think that has that much value. But I would address that bias, since I'm not a deity player, and thus tend to think that civs that are easier to win on deity are better.

    Ultimately, I think the approach is going to be anecdotal no matter what. (Basically, "take our word for it") since nobody will care enough to actually seek out data on every iteration of the game.... even stuff like game speed will matter. But I think some approaches will have a bit more validity than others, due to their methodology. This thread, for example, https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/scoring-civilizations.632554/ I think is the closest to an accurate methodology, even if not all of us will agree.

    And of course, when different players that have played a combined hundreds of thousands of hours or even millions come to similar conclusions "Spain isn't really that great", that probably holds more credibility than me just waking up and saying, "Gee, Cree is the best!" or something like that.

    Ultimately what is overpowered may even change over time as the skill cap rises. People were finding better methods for Civ 4 long after release, after all.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2018

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