1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Is salt OP?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Ritzy Cat, Mar 18, 2014.

  1. Ritzy Cat

    Ritzy Cat Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2012
    Messages:
    85
    Hey everybody. Something I have noticed over the last few months I've been playing is that Salt is OP.

    On an improved tile, gives you 3 food, 2 production, 1 gold. Salt usually comes in "veins" of 2-3 hexes, as well; Sometimes even 4, sometimes only 1. It only requires mining to improve. It is a luxury resource.

    I've noticed that in every game I play, one nation starts with the 2-3 salt by its capital. That nation ends up completely eviscerating the early game, every time. Wonder spam, build huge armies, tons of cities super fast. It's just a trend I've noticed. Although, the nations I do find that start with salt more often than others are the Zulus, Ethiopia, Persia, Morocco.

    I think it is too easy to get, and makes a city very productive and grow very fast. It needs to require a more advanced technology, or make it less rare that 2-3 of it is found in a single area.

    What do you guys think? Do you think SALT is OP?
     
  2. Teproc

    Teproc Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2013
    Messages:
    835
    Location:
    Lyon, France
    Yes.

    .
     
  3. reddishrecue

    reddishrecue Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2009
    Messages:
    5,206
    Gender:
    Male
    Salt could be more OP now with the earth mother pantheon.
     
  4. CraigMak

    CraigMak The Borg

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2013
    Messages:
    1,058
    Yes, Yes it is.

    Although desert hills with Petra are also OP. Especially if they happen to be by a water source or have a sheep on them.

    At least desert hills require you to make a wonder though. Salt is just straight up craziness from the start.
     
  5. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2003
    Messages:
    5,251
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Hidden Underground Volcano Lair
    Its a game design decision. It certainly gives you a boost, but by mid game, I would say its effects are minimal. Its up to you to make a strategy for it and carry yourself to victory.
     
  6. Teproc

    Teproc Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2013
    Messages:
    835
    Location:
    Lyon, France
    I disagree. There is a snowball effect with Salt (as with everything that is strong in the early game) that make Salt starts feel like easy mode. I don't mind it too much because it's nice to have an OP start every once in a while, but there is no denying that Salt is MUCH more powerful than any other luxury. It would be balanced if it was a bonus resource : as a luxury, it is way above the curve, power level wise.
     
  7. White Out

    White Out Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 29, 2009
    Messages:
    358
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Calgary
    I dont quite understand why people feel the need to bring up how some benefits wane in the later games. This is a game thats designed so that if you`re getting a huge lead at the start it just snowballs and builds and builds. If my population explodes early game then I have better hammers, research, and better chance at wonders. So maybe Persia has a lot of Oil and I have a lot of salt. Tough for me in the long game right? Well Ill just swarm them with advance tech and spend money to get what I want in later game.
     
  8. chazzycat

    chazzycat Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2010
    Messages:
    2,866
    short answer: yes, of course.

    I think it was done to balance plains to be more competitive with grassland, but they overdid it by making them clump up too much.
     
  9. Ritzy Cat

    Ritzy Cat Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2012
    Messages:
    85
    I agree with that. I LOVE building Petra. Rivers in deserts are usually surrounded by flood plains, but sometimes they are covered with hills - 3 production and 3 food, that city is an immediate wonder spammer.
     
  10. Calouste

    Calouste Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2006
    Messages:
    2,725
    BNW is not as much a snow-balling game as earlier versions of Civ used to be. What would be the point of putting civs like the current versions of France and Brazil in the game otherwise? They practically don't get any benefits until the late Middle Ages. IMO it's more that most players are uncomfortable in situations where they are behind the AI, that's why they perceive it is a snowballing game, but it's fairly easy to stay close behind the AI with stealing techs, trade route science and discounts on techs that have already been discovered.

    Back on topic, yes Salt is strong, but it only appears on Plains, Desert and Tundra, so even if you get some great tiles, the rest of your land tends to be pretty poor.
     
  11. CraigMak

    CraigMak The Borg

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2013
    Messages:
    1,058
    An early game boost allows you to snowball out of control and have a dominant advantage in the mid and late game. Early advantages and front loaded benefits are everything in this game.

    Extra growth, hammers or science early leads to even more extra growth hammers and science later. There is no advantage to being behind. Salt is OP and any early advantage is OP and will most likely lead to late game dominance.
     
  12. Securion

    Securion Civ Veteran

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    Messages:
    746
    Location:
    Earth (mostly..)
    No salt, no civilization.
    Roman soldiers where paid in salt. Therefore the word "Salarie", which comes from the old latin word for "Salt".
    It should be an important resource.

    Sadly the resource system in Civ 5 just treats it as a "luxury" resource...
     
  13. CraigMak

    CraigMak The Borg

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2013
    Messages:
    1,058
    Snow balling is still huge in BNW. Early advantages lead to bigger late game advantages. An early advantage leads to a snagged wonder, planted city, extra workers etc.. These things benefit you throughout the entire game and lead to more power.

    Front loaded civs dominate every game. Civs that require time to build up and gain steam are just not as good. This is why a civ like Spain that gets 500 gold on turn 5 is set to win the game already. This is why Shoshone, Babylon and Spain are massively OP civs. Their early advantages carry them the entire game and you can never catch up if all things are equal such as land and skill.

    Also, plains are awesome, salt makes them even better. I'll take an all plains start any day over tons of grassland. Production is king.
     
  14. CraigMak

    CraigMak The Borg

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2013
    Messages:
    1,058
    Yes, everyone who graduated 5th grade knows that salary comes from the word salt. That is not the topic of discussion. Historical accuracy is not important compared to the game actually functioning well.
     
  15. White Out

    White Out Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 29, 2009
    Messages:
    358
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Calgary
    I'm going to disagree with you there craig. Too much plains without salt or other food sources slow down pop growth which slows science and hammers in the long run. It's best to have a nice mix unless the plains are on rivers to build nice farms on.
     
  16. Securion

    Securion Civ Veteran

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    Messages:
    746
    Location:
    Earth (mostly..)
    I think that attitude would fit better in a Minecraft forum.
     
  17. joncnunn

    joncnunn Senior Java Wizard Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2008
    Messages:
    8,621
    Location:
    Missouri
    From a game play perspective, yes Salt is OP.
    However, its very realistic.

    This is one of the main reasons that competitions have everyone start with the same start instead of submitting different games entirely. And this sort of thing (unbalanced starts) also happened in Civ IV, Civ III, Civ II, SMAC, and probably in Civ I as well.

    For Single player games, it doesn't really matter that a Salt start is so much better than a start with any other primary luxury.
     
  18. CraigMak

    CraigMak The Borg

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2013
    Messages:
    1,058
    Nah, I always work plains and other productive tiles until later in the game when I have civil service. Until civil service I don't even touch grassland. After civil service I'll work farmed riverside grassland for the explosive growth.
     
  19. Teproc

    Teproc Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2013
    Messages:
    835
    Location:
    Lyon, France
    Unimproved grassland is generally better to work than unimproved plains. Growth is everything in this game.
     
  20. tat501

    tat501 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2012
    Messages:
    250
    Its extremely powerful. The best lux. But then again, I believe that not every luxury or start position SHOULD be completely balanced.

    Historically, geographic position, the weather, the climate, vegetation, naturally abundant resources etc were massively responsible for the rise or fall of empires and civilizations and it should be thus in the game - and it should also make going to war to capture these resources vitally important. I still think this is a problem with the game - its far too easy to gain happiness or strategic resources through trade or through CS allies. War should be a requirement sometimes - rather than just fighting through self defence as I seem to do.
     

Share This Page