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Is the AI too willing to give up cities for peace?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Horizons, Jun 19, 2014.

  1. Horizons

    Horizons Needing fed again!

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    Following great advice on here and watching Youtube I've been able to master Monarch difficulty and could probably have a go at Emperor, but I've come to notice the inadequacies of the AI just like other players who have studied the game carefully.

    Often's the time when I have invaded an AI without building a full army (in an attempt to get an advantage from a new unit before the AI can counter it for example), and ended up being worn down and in a stalemate situation (particularly when besieging the capital), and my initial army is dwindling to nothingness while the AI's city still has enough health to sustain itself.

    Now I would probably, eventually, be able to take the capital by keeping up the pressure on the AI but it would become a long and protracted process building new units and sending them in, so I decide it's best to make peace. I'd take peace on fairly even terms to be honest or with a tribute of gold but to my great surprise the AI offers up one of its other cities, often quite a big and useful one, for peace.

    To be honest it seems too eager to do this, when it could be consolidating its forces and fight to the last.

    Oh and the other thing that is really bad is when you invade and AI and it sends half its army to invade one of your city state allies, leaving its homelands (even its capital) badly defended. :(

    I hope Civ6 will do something about this.

    I guess the only cure for these problems is to move to Emperor and hope that the Ai's massive cheating will compensate for its inadequacies.
     
  2. Uzael36

    Uzael36 Prince

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    The first thought is simply explained by that particular AI desiring not to be at war. Not every leader likes to war, most do not. How easily they give up does change as you move up in difficulty. You also have to recognize that the AI cannot see beyond where its units are. He is figuring you probably have more units coming, even if he can't see them yet.

    As far as sending units to the CS instead of defending against you, well, that might be because the AI treats other AI the say way it treats you. Both you and the CS is a threat, so it split off half its army to go after the CS. What it doesn't realize is that a human opponent is more deadly than a city state.

    You might just want to move up in difficulty and the AI does not cheat, it is given bonuses, but it will follow the rules 100% of the time.
     
  3. HorseshoeHermit

    HorseshoeHermit 20% accurate as usual, Morty

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    Yes, it follows its different rules to play the game differently, not according to the standard rules.
    I.e. cheating.

    I would say the AI does surrender too easily. When they fight each other they will yield up a lot of power to one of them just for having an extra bit of steel for a few years, and then it snowballs. That's why you find that one warlord on the other continent in Continents.
     
  4. Xiao Xiong

    Xiao Xiong Prince

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    You really should not be losing units to the AI when you are attacking. If you don't have enough units to take the city, instead of trying, hang back and pick units off outside the city limits. Level up your units while you build more forces until you can take the city quickly without big losses.
     
  5. redwings1340

    redwings1340 Emperor

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    Congratulations on improving! We told you we weren't lying when we said it was possible to win on higher difficulties! Sincerely, nice work!

    To address your point here, yeah, the AI can definitely be exploited in a lot of ways, and yes, as you get to higher difficulties, you do tend to learn to exploit it in ways you can't exploit human players. I often try to have city state allies near enemy civs I'm warring with to get their troops out of position. The AI peacemaking is... well, weird. The AI doesn't really seem to take a huge amount in to account when it comes to peace offers. I've definitely taken cities in peace deals that were incredibly well fortified by natural barriers that I couldn't have taken by force. Sometimes the AI also seems to say, 'screw it', you may have a huge army and can take our cities incredibly easily, but if you ask for one gold piece I'm not making peace. There are other times where the AI is willing to offer a large city, but I'm having happiness issues, and I really want a bunch of gold, but the AI isn't willing to offer that at all.

    It's weird. It's not the best designed system. We would all love it if the AI were scaled by making it get smarter instead of offering it insane bonuses, but in a game as complicated as civ, the AI is just not all that great at strategy, as well as very predictable in some ways once you play the game enough.
     
  6. BrokTheFanatic

    BrokTheFanatic Warlord

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    Its wonky. The AI will go from only taking a s8 up peace deal to suddenly offering you one of its cities (sometimes a biggun).

    In fact, if you goto war with someone else against an AI, sometimes that AI opponent with offer you a city for peace even though you haven't done a thing.

    They'll always be wierdness in diplo AI but what I find odd is how you'd think after 10+ years of civ games that they would have a decent expert system for diplomacy. They don't because they seem to toss old ones and then build a new one. Probably because they make diplo changes which their specific code can't work with but it seems a diplomacy meta-system should be possible because there are a limited number of game choixces, states and conditions. To build it is non-trivial but once built it could be used for 10+ years.
     
  7. Xiao Xiong

    Xiao Xiong Prince

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    I am almost NEVER willing to take a city from the AI, because I only want their capital, and they will never offer that.

    However, once they are willing to offer you a city, they will almost certainly be willing to offer you a bunch of gold. There is a bug where if you say "what will make this deal work" they will only offer the city. But if you actually put together a gold deal and propose it (not ask if it works) they will probably accept it, if they were offering up a big city.
     
  8. HappyBuilder

    HappyBuilder Chieftain

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    Yessir. I often go 'to war' when asked by another civ without sending a single soldier toward the front. After a little while, the AI will contact me and surrender something ridiculous. If cities are offered, I'll often sell them to the civ that asked me to go to war in the first place.

    HB
     
  9. tetley

    tetley Head tea leaf

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    Usually when the AI offers a city for peace, I decline and later propose the peace deal on my own time. I want to kill, pillage, and get a little more experience first. If I suspect a city bombard is about to kill one of my units, often that is a good time to re-propose the peace deal before you hit "next turn".
     
  10. Makavcio

    Makavcio Prince

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    Warring against AI in Civ5 consist of two phases. First, you need to eliminate their whole army from afar with ranged units. Then you can move your ranged units forward, wear down enemy cities and when they reach 0hp, rush them with a horseman or a scout with +1 movement promotion. Works fine in information era.



    How to win a war you can't win?
    Ally a CS near your enemy, declare war, keep your units in safe distance and kill off anything that comes close. Rinse and repeat. Accept the city you want in peace deal that will come in a few turns of picking off enemy units.
     
  11. Navelgazer

    Navelgazer Prince

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    The other day, I was playing as Germany (Prince level, as will probably matter for how absurd this got.) Shaka was my neighbor, with Ulundi inland on an okay location, and Umgungundlovu on a great coastal location bordering Berlin. He had no other cities yet.

    He DOWs me as soon as he can put together an Impi rush, and while I've got the army to hold him back, they're all over the place at this point. I call everyone to the front lines while trying to hold off his attack on Berlin long enough to eventually launch a counter-offensive, because Hey, if I'm fighting a war I'm going to at least get that coastal city in a location I'm jealous of.

    Before I could even get to the point of a counter-offensive, though, he withdraws and offers me Umgungundlovu for peace. I never set foot in his territory, even. All he was left with was Ulundi.

    SO yeah, that incident seemed like the AI was a little overeager there.
     
  12. Novalia

    Novalia Prince

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    in contrast when you're in a war with an AI that outguns you and is willing to talk peace his initial demands are some of your cities.. you can simply delete the cities from trade and the AI will accept..

    as for taking cities you shouldnt really attack them unless you can take them out in three or so turns.. dont bother plinking away at it until you have enough ranged units.. still even after you've eliminated all of his units sometimes there's a pesky ranged unit inside (or behind) the city that is a nuisance.. send one of your workers to stand right in front of the city and move your ranged back away.. the enemy ranged unit will come out to steal the worker.. then you kill it.. take the worker back.. and step back in with less damage potential to your units.. a horse unit is good for this because you can rinse/repeat the same action if there are more units behind the city.. ranged kill the unit that stole worker.. send horse in to take worker back... move horse back out of range leaving your worker there to be stolen again...

    either way you should begin to think about not losing units.. sacrificing a weak unit occasionally is one thing.. but a unit you dont want killed should never be killed.. once you begin thinking this way and planning accordingly you can move up a skill level.. but losing units on king simply means you dont have the correct mentality at the moment.. you're moving too fast for your situation.
     
  13. danaphanous

    danaphanous religious fanatic

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    You need far more units to successfully invade then you need to successfully defend. Difference is you don't have cities to fire from and he does. Big cities pack a punch too. When invading a city you want things over quickly. Invade a coordinated compliment of melee+ranged and at least 2 siege to end very quickly.

    As for cities in deals? I've seen the AI go both ways. Sometimes I'm crushing them horribly and they refuse to offer cities. Sometimes I barely did anything and they offer up a city. Chalk it up to the AI's idiosyncrasies. Some are more willing then others. If they really, really want to stay peaceful you have a better chance of seeing this. Or if your pointy-stick rating is very large compared to theirs, they might figure, why not toss them a single city instead of wasting time matching them and dragging it out? In the long run, the AI can recover better from losing a single city then from a long war with a besieged capital. They have an advantage at settling so it is easier for them to rebound. It's always confused me when they offer a really good city though. The AI should not offer a city it's put a lot of work into without really being on death's-door. Usually they don't but sometimes they do.
     
  14. cairnsy44

    cairnsy44 Gooner - first class

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    Playing as Spain and I discover that Theodora has just built her second city in the shadows of Mt Sinai. Having founded Barcelona near the Fountain of Youth (only the second time I have seen it in a game!), I decided I wanted to take it, as I have the One with Nature pantheon. I declared war earlier than I had intended, as she was sending an unescorted settler across the waves and my trireme was there to destroy it. My army of one archer, one warrior and a catapult, along with my 2 triremes made their way over but before they could arrive in the vicinity of her lands, she offered me the city. I took it, as I do not plan (right now) on going warmonger. I just wanted Mt Sinai. But it surprised me a bit...and then 2 turns after peace, she offers a DoF. :crazyeye:
    I took that as well.
     
  15. Humantorch

    Humantorch Chieftain

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    I kind of wish the ai would give up gold instead of cities. I've seen certain civs go upwards of 30,000 gold and offering 200 gold for peace before a city for peace. I often find myself just above red depending on how many eras my neighbors have been trolling me with endless wars. I'd like to see a civ offer a solid 10k for peace after you've razed 10 of their cities and are closing in on the capital.
     
  16. Novalia

    Novalia Prince

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    if the AI is offering up a city in a peace deal you can change the deal yourself if you want gold instead.. you're very likely to get at least half of their GPT and mostly all of their current gold.
     
  17. Humantorch

    Humantorch Chieftain

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    In anything other than quick, then the amount of gold/gpt they have/will offer, usually isn't comparable to a strategically unimportant city. I'd like to see them throw 10,000 on the table and beg for mercy.
     

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