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Is the AP/UN victory condition satisfactory?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Bhruic, Oct 17, 2007.

?

The AP/UN victory condition should be:

  1. Left the way it is in 3.13

    14 vote(s)
    30.4%
  2. Changed back to the way it was in 3.02

    3 vote(s)
    6.5%
  3. Changed to require 50% of the Civs voting for the winner

    3 vote(s)
    6.5%
  4. Changed to require 50% of the world population voting for the winner (AP)

    6 vote(s)
    13.0%
  5. Changed to require 50% of the world population having the religion (AP)

    10 vote(s)
    21.7%
  6. Changed, but I'm not sure how

    10 vote(s)
    21.7%
  1. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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  2. Roland Johansen

    Roland Johansen Deity

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    At present, the diplomatic victory is a bit of a none-issue in multiplayer. You could easily turn it off at startup and that would be of little consequence.

    In table top strategy board games, working together is usually extremely important. In civilisation multiplayer, it's not that important in the early game just because you haven't met the other players yet. And even later in the game, you will be far more interested in the close neighbours than the civilisations who are on the other side of the world. At the end of the game, when the diplomatic victory arises, working together would be of the utmost importance. The players who have friends in the game can join together and vote one of them (and thus their coalition) as the winner, even if each of them are small and not that significant by themselves. Whether that is a desired form of victory is another question. And that is something that should be decided beforehand when the various allowed victory conditions are decided.
    As it is now, diplomatic victory just is a none-issue in the multiplayer game.

    In single player, it is weird that the AI votes for your diplomatic victory in some cases. They actually vote to lose the game. From a game point of view that is weird. From a simulation of a world of civilisations, it could make sense if these civilisations actually vote for working together and not for total subjugation of their civilisation. So from a realism point of view a joint victory would also make more sense.

    By the way, the restriction to one single PA is also a bit weird.

    In a future version of civilisation, the diplomatic victory and the Permanent Alliance could well be combined into one single diplomatic effect. When an alliance between various civilisations becomes large enough, then they have won the game. Something similar to the domination victory with your civilisation + vassals only a peaceful variant.
     
  3. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    One option

    Perhaps Diplo Victory could only come up if all civs are at peace with each Other? That would make it
    A-Easy to block in the case of the AP if you only have one cit with their religion in it, declare war on them... and Defy every resolution to stop (ruins that city,, but its OK otherwise)
    B-have a good reason for that 'make peace with X' function
    Also would mean that the UN/AP leader would be using the 'Stop the War against' Often to get to their victory condition or at least to punish the Warmongers.

    I think this might be the best solution
    You need to achieve universal peace to get a diplomatic solution
    (universal peace can also be achieved through a conquest victory)
     
  4. Infantry#14

    Infantry#14 Emperor

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    Dec 26, 2006
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    nah, AP is fine in 3.13, but UN should revert back to before. It's not really exploiting as everyone can vote base on their pop. If I have more pop, then I should win. Also a good backdoor for domination, where in some games I will win definitely, but it will probably take me like 1-2 hours in order for domination victory to take place. It just feel tedius as I know the result of the game anyway and I want the recognition now.
     
  5. Naismith

    Naismith Prince

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    I modded the XML to make domination victory occur at a lower percentage. I believe on a large map, I need around 38-40% of landmass and pop. The game is really over once you reach that point. Even so, I have to agree that the UN backdoor diplo win is a plus for the reasons you stated.
     
  6. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    Well usually if you have that enough for a backdoor domination you can play for maybe another 30-45 minutes and win with space race.
     
  7. KMadCandy

    KMadCandy giggling permanoob

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    warning: lots of replies grouped together.

    i agree.

    in nonHoF games that i want diplo victory, i save it before the vote and if no non-vassals vote for me i consider that not a win and i go back and reload, but mileage varies of course.

    the ultimate in "get them to like me" diplo victory is probably OCC diplo, where your votes frankly don't count worth a bean. that's one of my absolute favorite variants, so obviously i like "true" diplo victories (for lack of a better term). but i do see how some folks want to finish a game that they surely could win by playing longer to get space or domination since that can be long and frustrating. the point of the game is to have fun, not go through the motions for a rule that to me (YMMV) feels arbitrary. people should play to have fun, and IMO "true" victories and "comprised" victories are in the eye of the player.

    i've read your proposal and i completely disagree, for whatever that's worth.

    i don't play MP except teamed with hubby so i can't really relate to the problem there. but turning off diplomatic victory isn't a non-issue ... that disables the option to even build the AP and UN. i'd like to see that option turn into "the wonders work for everything except that the victory vote is never an option no matter what."

    takes me much longer. i like micromanaging and can't bear to just hit enter to get it over with. that's my own choice of course, but again falls back to my "every player should play the way that's fun for them" bias.
     
  8. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    I agree there... but if I have enough of the planet, why should I have to wait to research Mass Media, wait to build a Wonder and then wait for several more turns to get a vote in?

    Domination Victory is the true 'short cut' victory

    The reason the UN is a "short-cut" is because we know we've won the game even Before we've hit the domination limit.

    so Realistically, what should happen is
    1-Lower the Domination limit; Say *50%+ of both population and land area (Vassals count half still) (maybe add that you must have a tech score greater or equal to everyone as well)
    2-Once you reach the Domination limit you don't automatically win, but you can retire with a win [as opposed to retire with a loss], or push on for another 'complete' win (conquest, diplomatic, cultural, space, time)

    partially since I like the conquest and space movies far more than the domination one.
    *maybe also say 10% more population and land area than the next biggest civs in each of those categories (so 2 player wins don't become too fast)

    Actually, if i had to make a ' you should definitely win' category
    1. noone can beat you in Space Race... you should be ahead/equal in tech, and noone has the Apollo Program (and you have enough size to get the research for the space race finished before anyone else)
    2. noone can beat you in Cultural..Much harder to calculate possibly they just have to race you (getting Cultural before you get a massive enough control of the world)
    3. Noone can beat you diplomatically...you need enough votes to stop them (population)
    4. Noon can beat you in conquest...you need enough military power and the ability to maintain it (land and tech)

    So I'd stick with
    50+% of world land and population, 10% higher land than second largest land, 10% higher population than second largest pop
    and 'points from Technology' score that is equal to or greater than anyone else's



    PS revised some of the Diplo victory proposal in my sig... now just two ideas
    1. Require universal peace for it to be an option (possibly 10 turns)
    2. Sharing win (requirements they must vote for you AND have good relations with you.. possibly Open borders+Defense Pact or require Xturns of Open borders/Defense Pact.. or else let humans have the same 'relationship status' as AIs do, ie playing Isabella am 'Friendly' with my fellow Buddhist Theocrats who haven't spied on me.) so the AIs only vote for you if they like you enough to share your win.
     
  9. Roland Johansen

    Roland Johansen Deity

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    I agree that the diplomatic victory and the other options offered by the AP and the UN are quite different and should be distinct game settings.
     
  10. Naismith

    Naismith Prince

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    I agree as well. You can get the same effect pretty easily if you're willing to mod a couple of properties in one XML file (the diplo win voting percentage for both AP and UN). Just set them both to 99%.

    In Civ3, you could change the domination percentages, cultural win threshold, etc. when setting up a custom game. I wish Civ4 allowed finer control of game settings in general.
     
  11. Roland Johansen

    Roland Johansen Deity

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    I'd also like such options. But it is very difficult for the designers to predict what options would be appreciated by players. There are quite a lot of startup options in this game, but still I've seen lots of other different requests by various players. I think that you can't please them all and thus they made the game extremely moddable. In the end, a good decision I think.
     
  12. lroumen

    lroumen Warlord

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    What if the victory conditions were changed to the following?

    Criteria:
    1) Poll option 3, 4 or 5 (either is fine with me)
    2) At least 25% of the 75% favour must come from rival civilizations that are not your vassal (i.e. even if your contribution is > 50%, it's set to 50%).
     
  13. Naismith

    Naismith Prince

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    If they took all our suggestions for startup options, there would probably be 5 screens of them. :lol: That would be fine with me, but might seem overwhelming to more casual players. I'm sure Firaxis also realizes more startup options means more stuff to QA.
     

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