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Is the combat bonus for the AI on deity too much?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Loxas, Jun 16, 2017.

  1. Loxas

    Loxas Chieftain

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    I'm ok with the production, gold, settlers, etc., bonus on the deity difficulty. But man is that combat bonus really depressing?

    These bonuses were always about compensating the poor AI on higher difficulties, but this feels like too much, feels absolutely frustrating

    When you start a game and the AI declare war on you by turn 15 when you have barely time to build a slinger and warrior, and they just wipe you out you don't feel like you played poorly, you feel like oh no, another exit to main menu
     
    KumaChan likes this.
  2. danhynes

    danhynes Chieftain

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    We need a rule no war in first 20 turns :) I dislike their science bonus. Also I am not sure what they use their production bonus on because they don't seem to be making units in mid/late game.
     
  3. stormerne

    stormerne is just a Retired Moderator

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    I'd keep it as it is. On single player at deity level, human players are not supposed to win every time against the AI. The game will beat you any way it can to achieve that, whether you like the way or not. If it were otherwise, players would complain even more bitterly about that.

    You haven't played poorly and you've no reason to believe that. It's supposed to be a stretch. In fact no one says the game is even supposed to be at its most enjoyable at deity level, which is why many players like me who can beat the game in any way at any level will often play a notch or two down, relax a little, and enjoy the richness of all the finer points of the game that they've no time for at deity.

    By the way, it sounds to me like you're ready for multiplayer. :yup:
     
    KumaChan, Loxas and Photi like this.
  4. Loxas

    Loxas Chieftain

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    The quote system seems not be working so I'll just @stormerne
    I understand what you say, but higher difficutlies now feels like a lottery more than ever. Was there a combat bonus for Civ V? I don't remember, but i hated that game and didn't really played much. You say deity is not te be won all the time, I agree, but making it into a lottery is also not cool. This other game, pangea and stuff, I was very very far from the AI, I built this massive empire and won, not because I'm genius, but because I was far enough from them. So how is this cool? I could just choose huge map vs 2 AI civs and win, then just boast, look I won a deity game! The way it is now is just that, a lottery
     
  5. HF22

    HF22 Chieftain

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    To be honest, given the combat AI is so bad, I'd double the deity combat bonus to +8.

    As it is, with the right Civs, Governments etc, you can have an outright advantage over the AI with only +4.
     
  6. stormerne

    stormerne is just a Retired Moderator

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    It's not always clear, but the "Reply" link is the one you need, not the +Quote (which is used for multi-quotes).
    I sympathize to some extent. The problem is that it's actually really hard to create a challenging AI that will work for Civ without it doing stuff like this and making it feel like a lottery.

    It is possible to do it, but no one would actually want it! If it thought ahead like chess programs do, it would make a great AI that would scale well with difficulty, but it would take far too long between turns for most players. That's because (a) Civ is far more complex a game than chess, and (b) it would have to play N*(N+1)/2 games simultaneously (where N is the number of AI opponents) and not just one. So instead it uses heuristics and techniques that, at high difficulties, feel like cheats to some people.

    I don't play civilization as a war game. I can do, but I tend not to. And arguably, games other than Civ are better for doing that anyway. I don't find difficulty-related combat bonuses so important because, for me, the military is an occasional means to an end rather than a habitual means or an end in itself. Therefore I'm happier to slow the game down on Emperor and enjoy the other parts of the game more. I realize I may be odd in that way, but I'm still enjoying Civ after 20+ years and maybe that's something to do with why!
     
    Locke_Daemonfire, c4c6 and KumaChan like this.
  7. Loxas

    Loxas Chieftain

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    Seriously, teach me, when I've tried deity it's either civs far away as I mentioned in the other post or neverending war with the AI,constantly building military to defeat one AI so then another AI becomes more advanced than me and uses their muskets to destroy my swordsmen
     
  8. Balkans

    Balkans Chieftain

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    Some bad starts are just meant to be lost. So what? I like the fact that that scenario is possible. Combat bonus is not too much. Other things i could go on and on, but that isn't the subject of this thread.
    I see a lot of people build slinger as one of their first if not first unit? I kinda feel that some of players build scout first. I don't understand that. Even with little practice you would realize that warrior can take some punishment and slinger anywhere but on city center is almost good as dead. We are talking deity here right? That's my personal impression about early usefulness for slinger. I need one for eureka, and 3 when i can actually upgrade them to archer, i personally like warriors early, and i rarely get run over with this build...
    Deity shouldn't be easy, and deity on civ 6 is almost too easy, you lose just impossible starts that are quite rare in my experience. Human player can use so many factors and tricks to outplay computer, it's not even funny. You have some nice fun getting yourself out of a hole in first 100 turns and then you snowball. GG.
    And if you play deity - pls don't play it like a builder. At least not the first 50 turns. Greed is good, but on deity you need to be prepared, quite simple, and as soon as you see what's up, you go crazy builder just like you play on settler difficulty.
     
    c4c6 and DizzKneeLand33 like this.
  9. Loxas

    Loxas Chieftain

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    So, for what you are saying, deity means war after war after war
    No way for peaceful, cultural solution unless you destroy half your continent? Noy a criticism, just want to undertand. I play pangea, there is no peace out there when you play this way
     
  10. HF22

    HF22 Chieftain

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    Easy wins on deity mean war. You have to built the units early to protect yourself, so you may as well use them.

    Conquest of an AI or two, being that half continent, then you can coast to win anyway you like (cause of the size advantage).
     
  11. Balkans

    Balkans Chieftain

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    Read carefully what i wrote. Early game is where you need to be prepared, not necessarily conquest anything if you don't want, after you dig yourself out of a hole then you can play peaceful. I recently had a deity game, mentioned it in a few posts where i allied 7/7 opponents! So i had all the peace in the world, almost sickening how peaceful it was. :)
     
  12. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    ...yes... and the way it was then was also a lottery... whatever version of civ you play on ... so much depends on your start position... V was no different.
     
  13. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Chieftain

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    I think barbarians are even stronger. In Civ 6 Ais, no matter what difficulty, are not as strong as barbarians who manage to produce one 36 strength horseman per camp per turn at ~T30.

    Also, I think Ai shall receive a bonus especially on upgrading units,like Civ 4 or 5. I think giving Ai a higher tendency of military unit production(especially those that are near to be upgraded) as well as a 80% discount on upgrading units is fine. It seems that in 6 they don't know how to upgrade units. And I don't know why AI keep on building Scouts. Just like AI in Civ V tend to set population as "unworked" instead of let them be scientists or let them on tiles that produce more.

    Also, I think double the Ai combat bonus to +8 (only against players) when fighting inside their own territory may help a little bit to their poor defense.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2017
  14. DizzKneeLand33

    DizzKneeLand33 John Curtin is a warmonger

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    Actually, I bet it is quite hard to win a deity game with only two AI civs on a huge map. Part of how to win a deity game is to stomp your nearest neighbor, and that wouldn't work in this scenario....

    Building a slinger first is just asking for a quick death. What are you doing with your starting warrior? Is he out exploring? Your city defense is TEN less if a slinger is sitting in there versus a warrior.

    So, I have not seen this non-upgrade phenomenon post patch. This is all stuff from before. The only problem I have seen is that if a civ has no iron, but then has niter, that it seems like the AI doesn't know that it can upgrade its warriors directly to muskets -- so those civs will still have some warriors running around since they could never upgrade to swords. Or maybe it has to do with maintenance costs....

    Speaking of maintenance costs, did you realize that scouts are free maintenance? I don't think I use enough of them -- they can bust the fog in those tundra locations you would never settle for free. That's why the AI builds them. I thought it was dumb, too, until I started thinking about it. A free maintenance unit to bust that fog is better than it costing money, almost in every situation.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 18, 2017
  15. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Chieftain

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    A deity Ai shall be getting a discount on maintainance costs as in Civ 4 and 5. Maintainance cost shall not be their burden.
    In fact, I always see AIs keep on building Scouts even when they're facing a Siege. And actually they are not using them for exploration. I believe something bad happened in the AI code.
     
  16. DizzKneeLand33

    DizzKneeLand33 John Curtin is a warmonger

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    I think that is just to get units out quick (in the old eras). I see it kick a scout kick out and have a second unit built in a city on the same turn to try to break the seige. Maybe that's when they can't afford a warrior.

    Regardless, it's still cheaper to fog bust (even if just considering production) with scouts than other units.

    I'm pretty much just playing deity now so maybe there is a different, more sinister explanation in the code -- once we get through an expansion hopefully we will have more modding tools to fix those things broken in the AI.

    I do know this -- the AI logic doesn't really change between levels, so if maintenance costs are a consideration at any level, they are a consideration at all levels.
     
  17. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Chieftain

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    Warriors don't have costs, too.
     
  18. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    My last 2 deity games I was attacked early and had to pull my scout back. The ability to sit on a wooded hill diverting troops because you are cheap, and then getting out quick has been immeasurable.
    I'm not saying a scout is best first,I'm just saying it's very flexible and different sonI'll continue to build it in about 30% of my games
     
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  19. DizzKneeLand33

    DizzKneeLand33 John Curtin is a warmonger

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    Yes, thank you, I realize that, "can't afford" means "don't have enough gold to purchase."

    EDIT: Since I'm apparently not clear today, this means scouts are cheaper to purchase than warriors.
     
  20. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Chieftain

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    I think AI shall realize that Scouts cannot save cities from Siege, only to waste money.
    In C 5 Ais don't buy scouts.
     

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