Is the game over after Liberalism?

[Virtual Alex]

How many games have you lost when you were the first to Liberalism?

I have not lost any.

Granted I am not an expert or anything I play on prince/monarch, and I rarely win my monarch games. But when I am the first to liberalism, I am always in a dominating position and I feel like I can just quit and start over.

Is this different at higher levels? Can you get liberalism first and still have winning be totally up in the air?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

You sure can. You can also lose lib but win the game handily.

 

[Virtual Alex]

Oh sure I don't doubt you can win after losing it.

But I have been reading lots of write-ups of games. In the strategy section, in the stories section, and even in the SGOTM sections and I don't recall a single one where Lib was won and the game was lost.

it seems if you are getting liberalism, then you are at least close to tech parity, and probably will have it after the liberalism slingshot, and once the human player reaches parity, the game just feels like a chore/beatdown.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

1. Posted games have bias, far more winning efforts are posted than losing in general
2. SGOTM combines players that range from "good" to "among the best in civ" into teams that pool knowledge and advice. Winning is seldom in doubt, even from the outset, but the goal is to beat the other players...
3. Playing diplo poorly and getting dogpiled, or contending with a powerful, runaway AI on another continent are both ways post-lib games can go sour quickly. Also, if the player bulbs to lib quickly but has an undersized empire, he has to close the gap militarily. If insufficient land is taken in that effort, it is hard to recover.
4. On high difficulties, the AI gets a material era bonus...so their bonuses are actually magnified to be markedly stronger late game than early.

 

[bestsss]

I have lost enough high-level immortal/deity attempts even after winning liberalism. This is what happens if you devote too much on winning it and not developing properly the land...
exactly what TheMeInTeam said.

 

[GenerallyGreat]

I tend to think that game has just begun after liberalism.

 

[mariogreymist]

I have been playing a game where I won the liberalism race by such a handy margin that the only reason any other player was even researching Education was because I sold off paper to several players to finance my expansion to the new world (prince, huge, marathon, terra). I started on the far end of a continent, with just enough room for 12 cities, none of which have their nearest neighbor more than three tiles away. This means my ability to generate masses of GP has been somewhat hampered, as my populations are smallish. I also have miniscule manufacturing, so I am in very serious danger of being dogpiled should my two nearby allies collapse or turn on me.

On the other hand, I am far enough along in colonization without any competition that it might be possible for me to win by domination without fighting a single non-barbarian battle. I give it about a 50-50 shot.

The joy of civ is how different one iteration of the game can be from the next.

But generally speaking, if I get Liberalism, I win. (up to prince...haven't played enough above that to make a good judgement)

 

[michmbk]

I'm fully planning on losing the Liz deity game in S&T I'm shadowing, and I went to bed last night right after hitting lib first.

I've definitely lost games where I was first to lib, so it happens. First to lib with 12+ cities, now that's a scenario I don't remember ever losing. Land + tech is a surefire winning combo.

 

[mariogreymist]

Remember...huge map, and the cities were crowded. 12 properly spaced cities (on any map size) and first to lib is a sure winner...you'd have to vote for the other guy in a diplomatic election to lose.

 

[r_rolo1]

If your games are always decided just by getting liberalism, you definitely need to get harder competition That is the same that saying that it is not worth to play the second half of a basketball or a soccer game because you have a advantage so big the adversary can't even think of turning it around ... it says more of the relative strenghts of the players than actually anything of the game in itself

 

[Bandobras Took]

Of course, that's when you send in the second or third string . . . maybe less qualified Civ players can be brought in to take over games that have been won?

 

[johnny5000]

If I'm getting killed I usually won't finish the game.
So if I get to liberalism, I'm probably in a pretty good position to win, just by the fact that if I wasn't, I probably would have quit the game a while ago

 

[Virtual Alex]

heh, looks like I just got my answer.

I was first to lib in my current monarch game. Leading in tech, then about 100 turns later Babylon, and his (large) vassel Mansa declared war on me. And then the next turn The Carthaginians declares also, probably bribed. All while I was in the middle of fighting a war with Sitting Bull. I was crushing the Bull so I quickly made peace. But I had to quit when I saw the stack Hammy was bringing, and noticed Mansa's mini stack coming from a different angle.

Need to work on my military...

But in my defense this is the first game I remember losing after getting lib first. Funny how it happens now too.

 

[mariogreymist]

In my experience, neglecting the military is one of the things you can do that both aids in getting liberalism first (assuming you have space/diplomacy enough to do it) and in losing the game. It happened to me in my first couple of prince games, and I have begun to develop an instinct to know when to start a military buildup, and it is always before I get liberalism.

 

[JujuLautre]

Honestly, people talk about liberalism because it comes with a goody and looks nice and everything... But in some situations, if you say the game is over with liberalism, wouldn't it in fact be over by the time you get education? Or paper? Or philo? Or CS ?

I mean, I feel I would be able to say something like "is the game over after I get CS with the oracle?"

 

[Iranon]

@ JujuLautre: If I can get Civil Service with the Oracle, the game is over... although it probably means the game game was won on turn 1 since I'm either playing down or had a fabulous start.

*

Liberalism can be game-deciding... say we run a faltering specialist economy in a generally underdeveloped empire and wanted Liberalism to get us Constitution (or even Biology in a deep beeline).
Instead of setting up our lategame economy and being free to eat rival after rival in a Renaissance/early Industrial bloodbath we're dead in the water.

Otherwise I see Liberalism as something definitely worth trying (this wasn't always te case; when I started with Deity I wouldn't even bother... couldn't get it reliably and would rather claw my way up with medieval warfare) but not game-deciding.

 

[jauggy]

Biology with lib? How do you do that?

 

[Peteyboy]

As pretty much described above - I'd say it to much of a degree depends on difficulty.

On Prince & Below - if you get Liberalism first, you are probably in a commanding position and will almost certainly win.

Monarch & Emperor - Normally when I get it first I'm in a won position - although I've only ever lost from there due to mass war against me.

Immortal & especially Deity - Well I can't imagine ever getting Liberalism first on Deity, but on either level - because it isn't highly prioritised often the AI will be ahead of you anyway and whilst it helps it aint gonna be won just cos you've got it.

I've played about 40 games where I've got Liberalism first on Emperor & Below - and only ever lost once - Never got to it first on Immortal upwards.

 

[JujuLautre]

@ JujuLautre: If I can get Civil Service with the Oracle, the game is over... although it probably means the game game was won on turn 1 since I'm either playing down or had a fabulous start.

Which is exactly my point! People see liberalism because it's shiny and is the end of some kind of quest, but in fact, according to the same definition of "game is already over", it's perhaps in fact over much before.

 

[DMOC]

I've lost many times after getting Liberalism. I remember one game where I got Liberalism first around 400 AD, and a deity SoD from Zara Yaqob composed of an amalgam of about 80 units stepped into my borders the following turn!