Is the war weariness in BtS too much?

[gettingfat]

I've played a game where Napolean was my neighbour. He DOW on me. Fine, I beat him, counterattacked and took 4 of his cities and he had only 3 cities left. There was so much ww already I had to sue for peace. 20 turns later this idixt DOW on me again, even at that point my power was 2 times of him and had the Statue of Zeus. Although I was defending because I occupied some cities previously belonged to him, the ww kicked in so fast my capital immediately had 5 unhappy faces. The problem is Napolean had a city built on an island and I didn't have gallery (all I built are triemes for defence), and he refused to talk even I've taken out two more of his cities later. My whole land became dysfunctional even he was the aggressor.

To make it short, the war weariness in BtS is really exaggerated, especially in ancient to medieval era when you still have no jail and Mt Rushmore, and sometimes a war can be slow as it takes forever to lower a city's defence. I just don't undestand how ww can be made so severe in ancient time. It's not like in a modern democratic state with all kind of mass media. Nobody cared there's a war as long as it takes away their food! And I also don't understand how those insane AI can ignore that (geez, I had SoZ) and still DOW on me even he had only swordmen and I had macemen and elephants. It seems to me one AI intended to play in suicidal manner to help out other AIs. My research in that game was set back for at least 20 turns and finally I lost out to the tech club (Oranje + Mansa) on the other continent. Somebody's got to adjust it a bit.

 

[Carnage04]

Yeah, I think it's pretty irritating at times. One game I was playing, I had Genghis Khan DoW on me from halfway around the globe. His invasion force landed on my shores....my empire shuddering as his single boat dropped off a single fierce catapault and a really intimidating spear man. He came and laid seige to a city of mine that had about 6 military units. 12 points of city defense and two dead Mongol units later...the war was effectively over....but Genghis was so furious with me he refused to talk....for about 60 turns! There were no further encounters between our forces.

Yet, with this farce of a war "Raging"...my economy started to sag more and more with me pushing the Culture slider higher to avoid having my cities starve themselves into oblivion. I think that the amount of war weariness should at least have something to do with the intensity of the war, the number of Military Units you throw into some conquest far from your home, or the number of units your enemy has parked near or inside your cultural boundries.

 

[Littlelisa]

There needs to be a way to reduce it
Or buildings that improve the speed it lowers when at peace

I still have WW showing in diplomacy screen from a civ ive not been at war with for 100s turns, if we went to war again i would instantly get some unhappiness

In modern times with huge stacks and risk of tac nukes, WW is crazy, i got so much WW in a 30 turn war (in 1940s) with tanks and a few tactical nukes from them and myself, it will never go away, it would take 100s and 100s of turns
If either of us went to war again i would get 9 instantly

 

[IAM]

Ever talk to someone that has lived in a war zone with their family? War weariness can and does last for generations. How about people that have lost friends or family in foriegn wars. But yea it sucks if your civs unhappy.

 

[Jaybe]

BtS is BEYOND the Sword, meaning that longterm-warfare and its associated conquering is discouraged. The WW is not too much now, it was too SMALL before!

Learn more about war weariness, how it increases & decreases. Make your wars against a particular opponent quicker & sharper, with longer periods of rest between wars.

Watch how the the war weariness varies when you hover over their entry in the score list. I should remember to do that myself.

Oh, and use the culture slider!

 

[Ricci]

Littlelisa, Carnage04, I would like to know which gamespeed do you play. I 'm begining to seriously suspect many issues and criticism comes from playing faster speed (meaning the faster the bigger the problem), as I play in marathon and there is no sign of such slow tech pace, or such horrendous WW (it is higher that's for sure though). Indeed, I have find myself playing a much more balanced, more realistic, more fun game than ever before in the civilization entire series.

 

[Littlelisa]

I was playing marathon

The WW got so high from 1 war, it will never go away ever during the remainder of this game

Mine was nothing to do with slow tech, The weariness in early game isnt to bad, you notice it but it isnt crippling you.
It was late game when we all had lots of infantry, tanks and aircraft. We both lobbed about 5 tactical nukes at each other as well.
The WW shot to 1000 in the diplomacy screen real fast.

 

[Will9]

I like war in BTS. It devestes your economy if fight for too long, just like real wars.

 

[Littlelisa]

But not being able to go to war again for 100s and 100s of years after sucks

 

[gettingfat]

BtS is BEYOND the Sword, meaning that longterm-warfare and its associated conquering is discouraged. The WW is not too much now, it was too SMALL before!

Learn more about war weariness, how it increases & decreases. Make your wars against a particular opponent quicker & sharper, with longer periods of rest between wars.

Watch how the the war weariness varies when you hover over their entry in the score list. I should remember to do that myself.

Oh, and use the culture slider!

You don't have culture slider before drama. And in the period before drama, do you think people care that much about war? At that time people are way more tolerable to war than we are right now.

It's not that easy to get that "quick and sharp" war when your opponent is located on another island.

It's also ridiculous to get so much ww when you're not the initiator, and you take a big blow from performing a counterattack.

Also it seems a lot of aggressive AI simply ignore ww, so the war becomes a lose-lose situation.

 

[TheLastOne36]

i haven't had problems with WW other then the ones that had Statue of Zues.

I would like to have an option on custom game to disable WW though. it'd by nice for practice and teamer games.

 

[LunaticSlave]

WW is definetly way more nasty now than comparered to vanilla/warlords on marathon speed (only speed i play, btw). At 1st i found it annoying, but after a few weeks i actualy like it, seems more realistic and fun. Makes you do war a smarter way by forcing you to use your army the most optimun way possible, fighting/ending the war most effective way possible so your empire suffers the less possible. The way WW is now, has made my waring skills more effective , i like how ww works now.

Thats my personal opinion

 

[FrancisMarion]

My only problem with it is how it functions during the 2nd war... and the 3rd and so on.

 

[Rusty Edge]

My impression is that it's worse with BTS, and that it shouldn't be so bad when I'm invaded by the aggressor and he refuses to talk.

But that's only an impression. I need more game experience to have a hard opinion as to what exactly is wrong, and what should be done about it.

 

[Aurelius321]

Now I'm not sure about how Nukes play into WW due to the fact that I rarely use them (Build them as a deterrent/backup before the UN declares them unfit to use)... However I am willing to bet that you two lobbing nukes at each other which cause massive loss of civilian life and ruin city tiles would probably end up pissing your Population off for more than a decade or so

 

[gettingfat]

One issue I see is: when I am being attacked by certain aggressive AIs, the only way I can sue for peace is to counterattack and take sufficient number of cities from the aggressor. However, if I send my army into my enemy's land I'm immediately tagged with huge amount of ww, and if I don't do that the AI simply ignore his own ww and is glad to have the war last forever. So you can see the dilemma here. I think this is blatantly wrong. Why do my people get so upset for defending them?

 

[eXcel]

I have noticed a lot of WW in bts, but did the way it works change? Before it only applied to one civ: like I could fight ghandi for 30 turns and have a big WW. Then I peace w/ ghandi and war w/ Elizabeth, my WW starts @ zero because now im fighting a diff civ. Hrmm, I will have to pay closer attention..

edit:
also I looked @ the xmls and i think the WW benefit the AI gets at higher levels is one of the best benefits the AI gets and make it almost a non issue for the AI. I havnt played too much w/ statue of zeus, maybe it makes it tough on AI.

 

[IronCrown]

I wonder how ww-reducing buildings and civics work. Do they a) reduce the amount of ww gained (so if there's a fight that would add 3 ww then it only adds 2) or b) is a modifier that is applied to the overall ww gained?

First would mean that you should switch to police state right at the start of a war, so that ww doesn't accumulate so fast in the first place. Second would mean that you can switch to it once the ww reaches a certain level.

 

[eXcel]

I wonder how ww-reducing buildings and civics work.

It reduces the effective amount of the WW your city experiences (option 2).

 

[Jorderon]

There are of course a few obvious civic/building methods in helping manage war weariness, perhaps those buildings and civics should also help clean up WW and not just mitigate its effects a bit.

I also believe the best advice is present in the game "Win first, then go to war", this helps the issue inasmuch as being the aggressor. I also would like to see being attacked unprovoked give you a reverse WW effect that would boost your war machine and overall morale of the citizenry, however the bonus would only apply temporarily, as no populace could realistically be expected to support a war indefinetley , regardless of the circumstances that lead to it.