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[GS] Is the World Congress too early? (Poll)

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by j51, Jan 11, 2019.

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Is the World Congress too early?

  1. Yes

    54 vote(s)
    31.4%
  2. No

    80 vote(s)
    46.5%
  3. Maybe

    38 vote(s)
    22.1%
  1. Craig_Sutter

    Craig_Sutter Chieftain

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    I like early... makes for more interesting play. And I can get by the cognitive dissonance by imagining that even though I've not met another civ, I am vicariously affected via a third party, so am incidentally affected thereby. And even lacking an actual word congress, I can imagine a virtual one that influences what I do just by virtue of third party diplomatic relations. Of course, the existence of an actual congress will eventually make my de jure match my de facto and will be more satisfying at that point.
     
  2. j51

    j51 Blue Star Cadet

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    I don't quite get how having it earlier is better gameplay. In Civ 5 I always thought it broke the flow of the game coming so soon. It's an end victory condition thing IMHO. It should ideally be super late in the game.

    As for the gameplay trumps realism argument: It depends on what kind of gameplay you're talking about. There's something to be said for a fine balance of realistic and non-realistic elements. Too little realism and it breaks the role-play. Too much and its pedantic. I just feel that the early WC strains the role play elements without adding much in the way of fun, but maybe it will be awesome. That would be great.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019
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  3. Aristos

    Aristos Lightseeker

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    So you have problems with this (not that I disagree with it), but a gigantic mecha-structure jumping over a high mountain range is OK?

    Point being: Civ has long lost any approximation to a resemblance or pretension of reality or history. Not there anymore. A Global diplomatic body before sailing? Yeah! why not!? A jumping mega robot? Of course! As long as it instantly gratifies someone of that crowd...

    With that said, yes, it's too early.
     
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  4. Civrinn

    Civrinn Chieftain

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    I always considered the World Congress coming later as intended. In Civ 5 it seemed to me that people would begin to snowball in one direction and the World Congress combined with ideologies would give the world a second chance to swing the game in one civs favor. To hear about it coming early seems to me that the unintended consequences will be that late game (for Civ 6) becomes even more boring and useless. I guess time will tell though. EDIT: This comes from a person who always enjoyed late game Civ I know this forum assumes most people don't for some reason.
     
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  5. j51

    j51 Blue Star Cadet

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    I don't like the GDR either, but it comes late enough that I don't care.
     
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  6. Ivan Hunger

    Ivan Hunger Chieftain

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    People like being able to use their civilization's unique abilities as early as possible. If you can't use your civ's abilities until late in the game, it feels like you're playing a blank civ, which usually isn't very fun.

    Having the world congress begin early in the game means civs with abilities that relate to the world congress can use their abilities early in the game.
     
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  7. bbbt

    bbbt Warlord

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    "Anymore"? Maybe the first one was a little more 'serious'. But that had certainly jumped the shark by Civ II with it's made up leaders (see Shakala) and Elvis as your advisor starting at the ancient era (more immersion breaking than say a medieval era world congress). It's always had a good number of silly/tongue in cheek aspects.
     
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  8. Trav'ling Canuck

    Trav'ling Canuck Warlord Supporter

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    Quite likely a purposeful marketing decision in the design of Civ 2, to broaden the game's appeal.
     
  9. acluewithout

    acluewithout Warlord

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    I dunno. It kind of depends on what you imagine a "World Congress" is, but Medieval doesn't seem early at all.

    I mean, what about the Council of Nicea etc.?
     
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  10. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    Excuse me guys, but this council is not valid because I'm sure there's 4 countries on the other side of the world we don't know about.

    Is not too hard to think of a workaround. Make it so you can't join the World Congress if you don't know the leader, or several members. The votes will not apply to you. If you do know the leader, or several members, then you get introduced to all of them when the Congress gets created.

    But honestly that's just too complicated, so just live with the simplification.
     
  11. acluewithout

    acluewithout Warlord

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    Agreed.

    I'd prefer if maybe you could only join the WC if you'd researched a certain tech (so, initially not everyone was in the WC) or a certain wonder was built. ...but, what we're getting is fine.

    And overall, "Medieval" feels about right timing-wise.
     
  12. scry887

    scry887 Chieftain

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    I think that WC needs to be approached differently to reflect realism.

    IMO you can't have WC without knowing who is who. As others have mentioned, you would meet the other Civilizations at the WC when it is initiated.

    Therefore I would think that it would be ideal IF there were maybe several councils made up. And this might be a step outside of realism in terms of game-coding but...Hear me out:

    - A "World Council" would be created when 3 civilizations have met each other. As they meet other Civilizations and city states they would add to their world council with decisions affecting their council only.

    - If a World Council has met another World Council then they will combine, meeting the other Civilizations that they haven't met in that World Council. This would be triggered when one Civilization meets another CIVILIZATION from a different World Council. When all World Councils have combined then it creates the World Congress that we know and love (?).

    - The combining of two World Councils would work in the following scenario: If World Council "A" has more civilizations and city states in it than World Council "B" then World Council B will join World Council A. Then all active policies are reversed with an opportunity to vote on them again with your current favour points.

    - When the World Congress is created, then all Civilizations meet EVERYONE. Again, I don't think it's realistic to have un-met players voting on policies. It's kind of like having a "mystery" voter making a game-changing decision on a vote to World Religion or something lol.

    That's what I would do. But it sounds like it's a great opportunity for glitches :p .
     
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  13. Socrates99

    Socrates99 Bottoms up!

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    Voted no. It kind of depends on how its implemented but I'd view it more as a "will of humanity" rather than some official body in the early eras.

    Think of the things that were nearly universally valued, ie gold, rock salt, silk etc. Say the WC early on votes to improve or decrease the output of something, that's how those near universal values would be represented.

    It could also represent codes like chivalry, rules of engagement, taboos etc that were generally accepted by different groups of people.

    Maybe that stuff wasn't global but there were definitely things that spanned from Europe to China, Japan etc.
     
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  14. Elhoim

    Elhoim Iron Tower Studio Dev

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    Yeah, I thought it was going to be something like this.
     
  15. Battlehelm043

    Battlehelm043 Chieftain

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    I personally think it comes too early due to the real idea of a "Nation State" not beginning to arise until the Renaissance. While this certainly earns it a frown from me, I would be interested to see how they finish balancing the Medieval implementation of the World Congress. Theoretically it could work well so long as the buffs from resolutions stay very low; this way snowballing will not be an issue from the early buffs. I will be very hesitant in lauding praise until I know and see more...
     
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  16. Hakan-i Cihan

    Hakan-i Cihan Chieftain

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    I would definitly like something in this line. I need to add though it would be weird to call it "World" Council, since it doesn't represent the whole world and the abbreviation is exactly the same as World Congress (players tend to use abbreviations a lot).
    It would also require a good solution for combining the different councils into the world congress. Assume that 2 different councils have taken exactly opposite decisions, how should this be solved. Vote again in 1 turn for all previously taken decisions or undo all decisions and start over or do something in between? Another "solution"/option would be that each council have to agree for combining the councils. But it will require some good rules to let it work out properly.
    If this could have been done, I wouldn't mind for councils as early as in classical age.
     
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  17. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    Given that in any invoked context, historically, "World" doesn't actually mean the world, because it's beholden to the cultural extent of borders and knowledge at the time, this is absolutely fine. Not even getting into the completely ahistorical nature of Civ, generally :D
     
  18. Zaarin

    Zaarin My Dearest Doctor

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    Two objections to this: the first nation-states didn't crop up until the Enlightenment, but the roots of nationalism can be found in the High Middle Ages (viz., "the Matter of Britain," "the Matter of France," and "the Matter of Spain."). Second, you don't need nation-states to have international councils of some kind. See the various ecumenical councils of the early Christian Era as has been referenced before in this thread or the various multi-party treaties in the Middle Ages.
     
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  19. Josephias

    Josephias Chieftain

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    I'd even consider we could consider the Reichstag of the HRE as sort of an example of "World Congress", even if of a small part of the world.

    In that sense, you can say the need for councils / assemblies of tribes / kings starts with the end of Classical Empires, henceforth the middle age.
     
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  20. scry887

    scry887 Chieftain

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    Well my solution would be to reverse the policies with maybe 25-50% of your favour refunded, and then re-vote on the policies with the combined council. Of course my solution wouldn't be perfect... but hey, I think it would be relatively fair.


    ...Something that I was kind of thinking about in the back of my mind was maybe going to war with another council before combining? Like having two councils vote to join the other, being able to view each other's policies, and then go to war if they hate the other policies? Again this would be a coder's nightmare but it would cool if two world councils went to war because they disagreed with the other's policies.

    It could work like this Council A meets Council B. They view each others policies. Council A has world Religion: Catholicism in play; Council B has World Religion: Hinduism in play. Council A votes to NOT combine with Council B and because one of the World Councils didn't want to join the other, then they have 10 turns to prepare for war. The losing council will be when one of the civilizations of that council offers peace first, and then the losing council will join the winning council adopting the winning council's policies. - A Diplomatic War.

    Again, it's a coder's nightmare and a total fantasy.
     

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