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Is there a incentive not take cities?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by RancidTwinkie, Oct 19, 2011.

  1. RancidTwinkie

    RancidTwinkie Chieftain

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    It seems that for any of the victory conditions (Culture, Science, Diplomacy, Conquest) - conquering AI (non-CS) cities is advantageous.

    Puppets provide full Culture, full Gold, and full Science output. There can be a Happiness deficit from population/city count, but with the right Policies even that can be minimal.

    Other than Happiness, is there any motivation/incentive to not take over cities? The entire continent?
     
  2. markovnikov

    markovnikov Chieftain

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    The happiness penalty is not insignificant if you are puppeting everyone. If you annex (with courthouse), happiness becomes less of a problem but you struggle to gain new policies.

    Either way, taking out cities like a virus will give you diplomatic penalties with the other leaders. If you want to dominate, this probably doesn't matter but if you want to trade it does.

    So your answer really does depends on the win condition you want.
     
  3. vexing

    vexing knows

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    puppets increase the cost of national wonders, and while you're at war you can't have an RA signed with the opposition. capturing a capital also has a negative diplomatic hit with that civ. you may also gain a new neighbor that will covet your recently gained lands.

    other than that and the obvious happiness hits, there aren't really any good reasons to not take cities. i generally find investing in a small army for purpose of getting at least a few puppets advantageous.
     
  4. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

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    My primary motivation for peacful play is the time it takes to fight wars. I would rather finish the games faster since war is not required.
     
  5. lilnev

    lilnev King

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    That depends -- is it more profitable to conquer additional cities and sell them to the neighbors, or is it more profitable to leave your vanquished foe economically viable so he can pay you a larger tribute? You also have to account for the opportunity cost -- if you continue to prosecute this war, you're forgoing the opportunity use your army against someone else.
     
  6. Derpy Hooves

    Derpy Hooves Grand Inquisitor

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    As this is basicly a war game the only real negative consequence is having to manage your happiness (which with wonders, lux and policies is fairly simple).
    I play a fair deal of SC2 and it just feels like having to build additional pylons, but with less negative consequences if you don't.
    It'll make people hate you ofcourse, but then again, they probably already did because they covet your stuff, had to stop building a wonder because when you built yours it would've just been cliche, feel your trying to win in some strange metaphysical concept of a game or have been stupid enough to make a DoF with ANYONE, etc.

    I think the point is, warring is alot easier then keeping them friendly.

    And if you can, leave your enemies with 1 or 2 crappy cities and then make peace, they'll keep denouncing you but I suspect it's less of a diplo penalty then wiping them off the map completely. Also I like to take the little bit of gold and GPT that they have for lux so I know they won't be able to really produce anything and to support the ol' war machine (by giving them unneeded lux I've even gotten them to friendly again, for all the use that having a joke-tier Civ as a buddy gives).
     
  7. revelation216

    revelation216 NQ Civilopedian

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    To deal with happiness, razing is the way to go IMO

    4gpt for courthouse, extra pop and initial unrest is a huge bother. I usually just raze cities unless they have wonders and replace their cities with my own if they have good resources.
     
  8. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

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    I dont think thats true. Its pretty easy to keep them happy. My last few games I never fired a shot except at barbarians. Like I said before, if you trade with them every chance you get, they will love you to a fault.

    Many times the other civs on my continent will fight each other repeatedly and leave me alone for ages.

    Just as long as they cant kill you, you dont necessarily need to kill them. The tiles that you draw from the map generator and can access during early exapnsion are often enough to win.
     
  9. Derpy Hooves

    Derpy Hooves Grand Inquisitor

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    Admittedly I hav'nt tried more then 3 times to do a completely peaceful game but after that amount of times you tend to assume it's not gonna work out.
    One game I went wide, made a good amount of cities, everyone DoW'ed me because they coveted my lands.
    One game I went tall, they attacked me because they coveted my wonders and lands (Ramesses, earth, spawned on America, south america was conquered before anyone met me or the thai).
    One game I went OCC, they attacked me because they coveted my lands, wonders and where angry I was friends with Bismarck, who conquered Eurasia, was just outside of my doorstep on the Arabian peninsula and I eventually ended up using as a warhound because everyone else kept DoW'ing me for the generic myarmypoints>hisarmypoints reasons. This leads me to believe that the only way to keep enemy civ's truly peaceful is to have an army that could easily wipe them off of the earth, kind of defeating the point of wanting to do a peaceful game.
    I did still go into a DoF occasionaly back then, can't imagine that's the sole reason though.

    And yeah, I trade as much as I can, who does'nt like money right?

    And things can be fairly friendly up until about the rennaisance when everyone starts to DoW everyone else because of the tons of negative modifiers they get from just living on the same continent.

    Unless you play on settler I find it hard to believe your games are generally peaceful.
     
  10. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

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    I play on emperor and always continents. Not because its safe, but because I like to explore with ships. I also think that if you do want to conquer the world, you should have to cross an ocean to do it.

    I like to go tall and I usually sit and build. Of course, you have to have a few units and you have to be able to assess any threats, but generally they leave me alone for ages. They are too busy expanding, fighting against themselves and asking me for RAs and friendship pacts to be bothered attacking. If they do attack, they usually lose their whole force and peace breaks out. Occasionally I will be so small and they so big that peace is impossible and we sit at war all game.

    The other thing is, buy a CS ally or 2 with the gold you get from trading. This will pump up your power rating somehow and they are less likely to attack. Buy as many allies as you can afford and make sure they are located in strategic areas of the map.

    But all in all the games are very peaceful.
     
  11. Goodenuf

    Goodenuf Warlord

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    In your games do you build a decent military deterrent?

    Generally I find that if you want a peaceful game, you still have to build a strong military. Seems counter-intuitive, but the military deterrent is often enough to keep the other factions at each others throats instead of yours.
     
  12. tnavres

    tnavres Chieftain

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    If there is a way to keep some civs from DoW consistently, I haven't seen it. It seems there has to be some deterrent.

    I normally play on a HUGE map with a buddy of mine. The last game I used good ole' Neb and had Japan & Polynesia as haters with Japan declaring war soon after game start. Luckily arrows>bushido when used right.
     
  13. Monthar

    Monthar Deity

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    No they don't. If you only have your capital and every other city is a puppet you only have to build the required building in the capital before building the national wonder. Annexed cities and cities you build do increase the cost of national wonders.
     
  14. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

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    They increase the base cost. Just double checked to be sure.
     
  15. Monthar

    Monthar Deity

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    Ok, ya'll are talking about the production costs not the requirements cost. So it just takes an extra turn or two to build them depending on how many puppets you have. To me, that is not an incentive to not capture and puppet cities. With just 1 puppet and 3 cities I built the production cost of the national wonders only increased from 215 to 245. For that slight increase I gain more culture and gold income. So I'm able to get to that next social policy faster and can rush another troop or support building sooner. All in all I think it balances out rather nicely.
     
  16. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

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    Of course not. The marginal increase in production cost is negligible compared to what you gain by having additional city.
    The only thing I really consider as such is happiness hit and diplo hit when taking civ's last city. And even that only applies to mostly peaceful game. In domination there is no incentive not to capture whatsoever. After a while unhappiness can be controlled and AI's hostility doesn't matter.
     
  17. Monthar

    Monthar Deity

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    Exactly, unless you're trying for a fast cultural win, you can always annex and buy courthouses to take care of happiness issues. Preferably after you've built the national wonders of course.
     
  18. revelation216

    revelation216 NQ Civilopedian

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    4gpt is a lot to pay...
     
  19. binhthuy71

    binhthuy71 Emperor

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    Being at war and not-taking cities has its advantages just because of AI behavior. Last game, Ramkhamhaeng DoW'd me while I was in one of those lulls you get when going after a Cultural victory. I had lots of cash and nothing else to build so I put together a very capable invasion force. Just as I was setting off to hammer him, Ramkhamhaeng sued for peace with terms that crippled him. I took peace. Not a shot fired and he was out of the running for a Diplo victory because I had all of his Gold.
     
  20. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

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    City net income is much higher than that.

    He would do the same, had you taken few of his cities. Sometimes looks like AI doesn't want to settle for peace, but the true is it values the peace higher than what it has to offer you. If you put all of its gold, gpt, luxes and whatever else on the trade table and propose peace, probably you'll get it.
     

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