Is there a lack of Native American and African wonders?

[Cannae]

Ok if Europe is so advanced (well you are right in some ways)why did they have tons of feces laying all over the ground while the the Atztecs cleaned the steets every day.If you relly are begging to be debateing aganst me I will make a another form with you can be as EURO-Centiric as possabal!!!!
aslo are you Racist aganst Natives, Africans and Middle Easternerns?????are you?????

 

[Red Door]

the Atztecs cleaned the steets every day.

So are you saying that the Aztecs represent all Native Americans?

 

[Cannae]

No but that was not my piont

 

[Cannae]

Also do you deny the fact that there where giant heaps of rubbish and feces laying all over european streets during the age of discovery???

 

[onedreamer]

Could you please STOP saying comments about the Native Ameriacan and like people if you relly want to debate stuff like this you should start a new thread abought it ALL I was asking for were some wonder/building ideas not a debate.

If you wanted to debate on the lack or not of native american and african wonders, obviously we need to debate on the "civs" that are supposed to have built them too. Don't you think it's natural ?

Oh yah I think that the only reson we have a lack of info is because the usa distoryed their hisory culture and way of life by doning a genicide comparabal to that of The concentracion camps in fact the usa did it on a even BIGGER scale.

Bah com'on... it wasn't the USA. Or better it wasn't ONLY. This was started by the European countries.

 

[onedreamer]

atutually (sorry for my spelling) if you think that nomad should not be in the game what abought The mongols???arn't they nomadic???And when you say that a ceritn group of people do not deserve to be in this game you are like before deniying them their history.

1) Mongols weren't nomads, but they did migrate. That's a totally different thing.
2) QUOTE where did I write that certain group of people do not deserve to be in the game ?
3) Learn to use quotes and stop putting words into my mouth that I didn't say just to prove your laughable point that I am biased toward native americans.

 

[onedreamer]

In fact I want you to read Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee writein by Dee Brown it is a book on abught the Natives side of the story of the wild west.

I read it more than 10 years ago.

 

[onedreamer]

Don't waste your time on the flamewars and just add those wonders, they're all as good as any other. There's no real criteria at what's a wonder and what's not. Leonardo's "Workshop"? Cure for cancer? If those work, why can't Nazca lines or anything else?
Just add them to the game, for every person willing to flame over historical and sociological 'what if', there's ten people that will appreciate a well made mod.

For the record, i always wanted to see the Moai statues as a wonder and i'd love Nazca wonder too.

The topic is "is there a lack of Native American and African wonders (in Civ4) ?"

1) The answer is probably yes but I'd say it's normal if you consider that there are no native american tribes in the game and only Mali as african civ.
2) Leonardo's Workshop and Cure for Cancer are not wonders in this game...

 

[onedreamer]

Also do you deny the fact that there where giant heaps of rubbish and feces laying all over european streets during the age of discovery???

maybe americans should pay a visit to Europe and Asia and study their stories before making certain comments. You said "look at the Pyramids, Stonehenge, etc...". But have you been in front of them or you saw them in a picture ?
Have you been in the streets of a medieval european city ? You can't even call them streets. These cities were in danger to be razed every day and were built as tight as possible to be more defendable. That was also the reason for situations like the one you described. Or did you think that europeans were dirty pigs ?
The mesoamerican cities did not have as big threats as european ones, and even less northern native americans. Probably that is the main reason why they were militarily less advanced. Btw we're not discussing mesoamerican civs here, since we already have 2 of them in Civ4 and a wonder.
It's hard to put a wonder in the game if you can't even connect it to a civ that built it because you know nothing of it. It's true that history is written by the winner, and what we know about the north american cultures are all suppositions if not for what has been written about them by the colonists, because sadly they didn't know written History.
A LOAD of other civs have been completely annihilated in the history of Man, not just native americans... what did you think ? But we do know many things about them because they themselves wrote about them.

If you want to be proud of native americans, you do not need to see them in a game where they won't fit well. Instead of calling pigs european civs or trying to defend pointless arguments like "the natives have been killed by small pox, otherwise europeans would have gotten kicked back", why don't you try to be proud of what natives really achieved ? They lived in the respect and communion of Nature, an achievement BY FAR greater than building the serpent mound IMO, and an example that modern americans should try to follow instead of blatantly ignoring the health of our planet.

 

[Polietileno]

In a minute, 3 south-american possible wonders:

1. The Easter Island Statues: 1+ Ship Movement
2. Sacsayhuamán: 25% Defence againts Melee, Archery
3. The Gate of the Sun: 1+ Happy for each specialist.

 

[Shqype]

If you want to be proud of native americans, you do not need to see them in a game where they won't fit well. Instead of calling pigs european civs or trying to defend pointless arguments like "the natives have been killed by small pox, otherwise europeans would have gotten kicked back", why don't you try to be proud of what natives really achieved ? They lived in the respect and communion of Nature, an achievement BY FAR greater than building the serpent mound IMO, and an example that modern americans should try to follow instead of blatantly ignoring the health of our planet.

Very well put.

 

[yellowhorse]

Dang onedreamer calm down send it in a pm or something, and hey Slavic Sioux i too read Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee and it also made me cry . Now back to the subject of this thread, most of the wonders that i suggested came from the city of Teotihuacan. I forgot about that Mesoamerican Scenario, i haven't played civ3 in a long time, anyway we could use those wonders from that scenario too. I can't remember what those were but they could work.

 

[chef pablo]

ill go back to an old post of mine,I dicussed the importance of all things ,wheat.what it meant to an ealy civilization.wheat was the difference between eaking out a survival and prospering.It was the difference between having a staple for the long drought or dying of starvation ,of building a great temple to honor your gods or offering a sacrifies to keep the gods from destroying your villidge.
wheat didnt grow everywhere in the ancient world, it only grew in the mesapotania and the people who lived there prospered from it.Free thinkers ate it, generals ate it,everyone got fat on it and so did the empires.As people began to cultivate it and use it in different parts of the world ,new empires sprang up and old empires fell.This had little to do with who was the great leader, or what they built ,it had everything to do with the place the empire was .We as humans have always held the beliefe that we are in conrtole when in actuality nature has always been behind the wheel.the natives of the americas had a far greater understanding of this,to a graeter extint the ancient europeans did as well.when man began to tinker in the middle east we bit the apple and began a life out of sinc with nature.while we busied ourselves with war and conquest the indian looked internally,while we quiveled over land they built calanders more accurate than our current calander they discovered goverments more fair and just they found medacines that we still cant unlock the secrets to.while they lived in harmony with their suroandings we destroyed and raped our natural world all of this because they were at the wrong place at the wrong time or depending on how you look at it it could be the other way aroand.the point is is that the indians were no better than us we just were simply given a better starting point.So does it not reason that what they did accomplish recieve credit. after all they did all this as primitives.

 

[chef pablo]

ok first off Slavic,calm down there are some valid points in this string,i do feel your plight but need to take a realistic veiw. one dreamer, get educated!

d

maybe americans should pay a visit to Europe and Asia and study their stories before making certain comments. You said "look at the Pyramids, Stonehenge, etc...". But have you been in front of them or you saw them in a picture ?
Have you been in the streets of a medieval european city ? You can't even call them streets. These cities were in danger to be razed every day and were built as tight as possible to be more defendable. That was also the reason for situations like the one you described. Or did you think that europeans were dirty pigs ?

the plague

[B]ive been ,was impressed but what i will never forget is standing on top of a temple in tical(the same temple in star wars where the x-wings took off out of the jungle)watching the sun go down ,howler monkeys in the back groand and a flock of parrots gliding over the canopy.[/B][/I
]The mesoamerican cities did not have as big threats as european ones
the mayan and the aztec fought, often they raided cities not for land but sacraficial victims. i think its a little scarier be a direct target rather than collateral damage.

, and even less northern native americans. Probably that is the main reason why they were militarily less advanced.

im not even going to touch this one.

Btw we're not discussing mesoamerican civs here, since we already have 2 of them in Civ4 and a wonder.
incan are south american not meso

It's hard to put a wonder in the game if you can't even connect it to a civ that built it because you know nothing of it.
who built stonehenge?
It's true that history is written by the winner, and what we know about the north american cultures are all suppositions if not for what has been written about them by the colonists, because sadly they didn't know written History.
A LOAD of other civs have been completely annihilated in the history of Man, not just native americans... what did you think ? But we do know many things about them because they themselves wrote about them.

If you want to be proud of native americans, you do not need to see them in a game where they won't fit well. Instead of calling pigs european civs or trying to defend pointless arguments like "the natives have been killed by small pox, otherwise europeans would have gotten kicked back"

little big horn

, why don't you try to be proud of what natives really achieved ? They lived in the respect and communion of Nature, an achievement BY FAR greater than building the serpent mound IMO, and an example that modern americans should try to follow instead of blatantly ignoring the health of our planet.[/QUOTE]

 

[jimbob27]

This whole debate has kinda gone against the whole concept of the civ series.

Originally it was about replaying history, giving the less fortunate civs another chance. Seeing what it'd be like for the aztecs or romans to still be around today.

The selection process for which civs fireaxis include, probably doesn't have anything to do with their success or power throughout history. Its probably more based on which civs sid thought were cool. They put a lot more detail into making the civs unique this time round, so they probably just skipped out certain civs which sid didn't favour so much.

If you want a civ to be more powerful than it was in the game.... then create a custom civ, and use them to kick everyones arse

 

[Goblin Fanatic]

2) Leonardo's Workshop and Cure for Cancer are not wonders in this game...

They were around since Civ 1, and after i checked, yes, vanilla Civ 4 does not have them. Mods have them, though.
The only 'not a building' wonders in Civ 4 would be Rock&Roll and Hollywood, though still, an example that wonders are achievments, not just buildings.

 

[Cannae]

Jimbob is right it is going aganst the whole concept of the game I still wonder why this string was turned into a debate when it was meant to be a poll meant to give wonder ideas.Abought the Sacsayhuamán: 25% Defence againts Melee, Archery The Gate of the Sun: 1+ Happy for each specialist.
those are good ideas thanks Now back to the subject of this thread, most of the wonders that i suggested came from the city of Teotihuacan. I forgot about that Mesoamerican Scenario, i haven't played civ3 in a long time, anyway we could use those wonders from that scenario too. I can't remember what those were but they could work. thoses animations and building discriptions could help a lot with this mod

 

[chef pablo]

They were around since Civ 1, and after i checked, yes, vanilla Civ 4 does not have them. Mods have them, though.
The only 'not a building' wonders in Civ 4 would be Rock&Roll and Hollywood, though still, an example that wonders are achievments, not just buildings.

id forgoten about this, what about guerilla tactics(dont know the award or the tech)but here you go


btw if anyone is iterested in doing a mod based on north american indians i have tons of info.

 

[Cannae]

chef pablo I would be interseted, however I know NOTHING abought xml editing and the few times a have tried to look for help on the tutoial and untility programs I have been lead to dead ends .However I have a map idea you know abought that Great Plains map right???Well you could resise that t o much a larger size or you could use a map of North Ameriaca. oh yah the xml thing if someone puts it into a very simple way that I colud understand I would be GLAD to help .How ever if I am to help I will NOT do the animations sencie I am prity much a gerantieing that I will mess up if I do.

 

[chef pablo]

sorry buddy im a chef ,if i could cut it,trim it ,and boil it we would be golden,but im not and i dont have time to learn . gonna have to be someone eles to do it.