Discussion in 'Civ4 - Road to War' started by gundam_guy, Jun 13, 2008.
Pls help, I am having a hard time getting the whole picture for this game.
There are millions of guides, books and movies about WWII.
Perhaps you should be more specific about your experience. What about the RTW scenario do you find difficult to grasp/appreciate/enjoy?
I have no idea if you are looking for knowledge specific to the play of RTW, BTS, Civ4 or WWII.
Most strategy guides for Civ4/BTS should help you along well enough. Try describing what is missing from those if you seek more help with gameplay confusion.
Having so many things to do at first looks intimidating but just focus and read.. Build structures and units and send them east or west to fight.. Just remember to bombard cities with artillery and planes and to weaken the units with air strikes from fighters before you move in.
Keep doing that and it will be easy.
My opening moves depends on what year I start in. In 1936 I forget the military and focus on getting as many new factories operational in the first year and a half.
With the other years, closer to war, I go straight for units. After the initial push I then refocus cities onto factories and infrastructure.
Yeah, there is A LOT to do on that very first turn, especially if you are playing as one of the major powers (lots of cities, lots of units). Take your time with that first turn and go through it methodically: first deal with all of the units (as prompted, city by city), then go through each city's production/food situation one by one, also deal with neighbors/allies for trade (the extent of which is determined by the scenario, the mode, and the start-year).
Ideally you do need to understand something about the history of WWII. Or, use this as a learning experience: use Historical Mode and it will give you the timeline of events exactly as they unfolded and you won't need to make any decisions about who/when to attack (but do pay attention to when someone declares war on someone else, especially if the someone else is you).
I played about a 15 minute game as Chairman Mao, and got defeated. I have no clue what Mao would have to do to have a chance to survive. He starts out in desperate condition.
Then I played an 8-hour game as Franklin Roosevelt and got defeated. While I was taking Pacific island after island, Yamamoto was turning China into an industrial powerhouse, culminating with a successful invasion of the West coast before I could roast his wieners in 1945.
I was thinking of starting a game as Roosevelt and having a secret alliance with Mao to send him food and weapons. That way he could keep Yamamoto busy in China.
So what's a key to winning? It's no secret that in real life, both Mao and Roosevelt did OK. Where did I go wrong? Is there a guide to winning in this mod?
Mao may have won in the end, but, as I vaguely recall, both Chinas suffered greatly during the war and were only able to turn the tide once the USA started diverting Japan's attention/resources.
I've not played as Mao or Japan in the latest version, but I would not expect Mao to be in a good position at the start. Japan should have production in Manchuria, that was one of their advantages. Perhaps spies will help keep Japan from having an easy time of it? I would think Mao's strategy is to outlast Japan, not hit them head on until they can hold what they take.
I am currently trying an Open Mode game as the USA. The USA has bigtime production potential, but it is not strong at the outset. It would seem the key is to get the science moving so that production can eventually be unstoppable, while churning out plenty of defensive units early (fighters and infantry and subs for me; the rest of the navy is already large enough at the start for basic defense; gradually start adding tanks once enough infantry is on hand for basic defense). For Historical or Random, I would be stockpiling units nonstop until war is declared (with detours only to build some factories and laboratories). You have ready-made alliances in Historical/Random -- use their bases to take the fight to Japan if you can; use their cities as airdrops for your spies. Dunno which version you are playing, but some of the problem may be whether Japan's other AI foes are competent or not -- if they are incompetent, it will be tougher for the USA (economic assistance might help, as you say); if they at least push Japan a bit (especially in China, but any naval action out of Australia/England would also help) then it would be easier. THe USA also has to play defensively to outlast Japan, as USA production at the endgame should be superior, but has to wait until it has better units. Defense of the West Coast is clearly of the utmost importance -- the AI Japan will have no qualms about invading mainland USA even if you are island-hopping close to Honshu. The best defense there is to keep a naval surveillance network and hit any invasion force well before it can land. Keep in mind that while those islands have strategic value as bases (which the AI does not seem to utilize as well as a human leader might), they have almost no production/economic value in CIV terms.
I'm new to RTW and the Pacific Scenario, and I guess the ultimate question is how well the scenario is capable of modelling the Pacific war. Mao and Roosevelt won historically, so how can we bring this about in RTW?
The problem for Mao is that he only holds one city. After the invasion by Japan, he becomes instant good friends with Chiang and the warlord. (Before that, Chiang was energetically kicking his butt.)
How can Mao take another city? If he loses his original city, he loses the game. If he moves units to another of Chiang's city, then a hammer & sickle appears over the new city but it's still Chiang's city. Should he declare war on Chiang so as to be able to take a new city farther from the battlefield, and dig in there? I didn't see how he could declare war on Chiang at all.
It's time for the long march, but Mao and all his men die while getting there.
With Roosevelt, the problem is that Yamamoto has an unstoppable production machine once Yamamoto can get Manchuria industrialized. Roosevelt just doesn't have enough cities on the west coast to beat him (I think). Yamamoto gets a powerful "second wind" that allows him to invade the west coast of the US. Should the US start invading mainland China or Thailand? Does Roosevelt need to declare war on Chiang to do that?
Unless somebody can tell me different, it just doesn't appear to me that RTW can model historical events well enough to satisfy us.
One thing that must be made clear here, right from the outset, is that Mao did NOT win the war. Kai-Shek did. The Republic of China (Democratic) was the majority, not the People's Republic (Communist).
Mao didn't win till 1948 in the civil war.
In reality, Mao can thank the Japanese for attacking when they did. The democratic forces were ready for the final blow to Mao in 1937 when Japan attacked. Both Chinese leaders put aside the civil war and entered an uneasy truce to kill Japs. When the war ended the civil war took off from where it left off. But this time, due to secureing sensible land in the north of China, Mao had a large enough base to work from to defeat Kai-Shek.
So RtW models history very accurately in regards to the two Chinas. That's why is so bloody hard as Mao.
In regards to Roosevelt, I love how the Americans think he should be able to win the war by himself. In game (and in history) it was ONLY a combination of US/Australian/Indian (UK) troops that stopped the Japanese.
If it wasn't for the fluke at Gaudelcanal, I'd be speaking Japanese right now.
Dale, I think you are the programmer and maestro of RTW. Thank you for letting my provocative comment flush you out. I was hoping to get the most authoritative answers I could. I have great respect for the work this mod represents.
Naturally I have to accept your point about Mao. However, at the end of the war, Mao and his merry men were alive. How can Mao take cities, to stay alive? I guess this is when Mao did the long march to Hunan. I uh... can't find Hunan on the map, and I uh... haven't looked up where it is yet. But how can he get there in one piece? He can't survive, fighting the Japanese; he needs to find a safe hideout. Do the game mechanics permit Mao to take a different city? And what do the hammers and sickles over certain towns mean?
About Roosevelt, I'm getting to realize how much the British and others did in the Pacific. As I remember my history, the US was island hopping in a kind of sideshow to the war in China, until we could get the atomic bomb built. That did catch the attention of the Japanese.
In this computer model, can Roosevelt keep the Japanese off the West Coast? Have players succeeded in holding out till the A-Bomb can be developed?
I find these simulations of historical wars fascinating and I always learn a lot from them, starting out with, uh..., where things are. Thanks for stimulating me and ticking me off!
Can't help much with your offensive strategy, but always keep a screen of fighters (not bombers) stationed on the west coast to recon for enemy transports so you can send QRF's in after them before they can land.
Thank you. I learned that lesson the hard way.
The other thing that has kicked my butt was that Yamamoto starts getting this whole new fleet, just when my fleet is looking raggedy and worn out. I created a ton of submarines and am sinking every Japanese ship I can see. Maybe that's a good strategy. Subs seem to do better than surface ships unless you're running conveys to the Pacific.
I also made a ton of fighters before Pearl Harbor and very little damage was done on December 7th. Just because Roosevelt's folks were incompetent (or duplicitous) doesn't mean we have to be too.
The Long March occured before the start of the game (1934-36). The point of the march was to consolidate the communist's four armies into one, so that they could survive as one, rather than be defeated as four. So whilst the Long March was costly in lives, it ensured the survival of the Communists in Yaan'an. Hunan is mid-south of China, on the Yangtze. It was one of four enclaves that the Communists were holding out. Kai-Shek over-ran all but Yaan'an after the armies pulled out for the march.
The way of Mao in game is this (I've succeeded in this strategy):
1. Hold on till Japanese war.
2. Defend your city against the Japanese with everything you have. Don't worry about Kai-Shek losing cities, but don't let yourself be surrounded by the Japs.
3. Hold out till general war in Dec 41.
If the game allowed the continuation of the civil war after Japan dies, this would be my strategy:
4. When the UK/USA/AUS enter, it should take some of the stress off your troops. This is when I start building communist propaganda and spreading communism to ALL cities I can get to (and hope to win back).
5. When Japan starts falling, TAKE AS MANY CITIES AS POSSIBLE!
6. This should give you a great base to re-launch the civil war, and with communism in all cities you should be welcomed by the population with open arms.
I thought i was kinda funny how in my open style mode (global) I converted Democratic China to Communist (playing as USSR). Its impossible to permanantly do that to any other civ.
The little hammer and sickle is a token of the city converting to the religion of Communism! Duh.
In game terms (historical/random only, obviously), a simple solution would be to give Mao a settler unit. That way, Mao can risk splitting his forces and trying to grab more space in some out of the way place like Tibet.
In general, I think some of the trouble is that CIV folks are not used to waging a largely defensive war, which is what all of the Allies had to do for much of the war. Glancing at Mao's starting position, I cannot imagine moving a single unit out of that city unless/until Japan brings something weak/undefended/injured within range. And even then, I would smash it and immediately return home. Another part of the problem, in CIV terms, is that even though you have historical AI allies, you cannot count on them to do anything worthwhile to help you (unlike the relatively more competent cooperation among the real-life Allies). They might do something to help you, they might not, and they certainly might not do what you think is best (at least for you) -- you'll have to watch them too to see what they are up to.
Tried playing Mao again and got stomped. This time I was on the easiest mode setting (settler). I was trying to build tank killers and develop anti-aircraft technology, a purely defensive strategy. Couldn't survive long enough to do this. It takes a l o n g time to build anything because you're constantly under attack. Maybe if I tuned the heck out of my city.
Dale says he has played Mao and survived. As far as I can tell this is a matter of luck, because you can't really do anything but hide in your hole and take punishment.
I'm about to try playing (again) as Mao in Open Play mode. I tried once before, and lost, but I learnt from my experience. Here are some things I learnt that I'll use for this game:
- with that one starting city, gaining techs is slow like a glacier, so I'll be focussing my income on money to speed up production, and maybe extra espionage points, too;
- spies are useful, for (a) investigating my surroundings, (b) discovering where my enemy has poorly garrisoned cities, (c) to try to cut railroads that enemies use for reinforcing their cities, (d) to instigate a riot in a target city to conquer it in 1 turn before reinforcements can arrive... however, spies can be captured, and take a long time to replace, so I reckon it's best to only use them carefully, when & where I think the reward is worth the risk... training 2 spies will ensure that even if one is captured, I still have 1 ready to use soon, so my military units don't waste time that they could be spending on a beneficial attack;
- usually when I send units out of my city, they get killed off, so I'll only do it when it's worth doing so, e.g. hurrying them to capture a city;
- Chiang Kai-Shek's Republic of China is much more powerful than me, so I think I'll wait until he gets distracted by a war with someone else before I try to conquer any of his cities - e.g. if Hirohito's Japan declares war on him, as happened in my first try;
- I found that using a Great Artist can expand my borders greatly, which is useful for enabling me to move from my city to a nearby Chinese one and attack in the same turn, so I think I'll try that, so my soldiers don't get caught out in the open where they are easy prey for attacks by enemy aircraft and reinforcements. I need to avoid such attacks, because even when my units survive them, my units are made too weak to take an enemy city.
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