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[C3C] Is there a winning strategy here?

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Strategy & Tips' started by patinthedesert, Aug 4, 2020.

  1. patinthedesert

    patinthedesert Chieftain

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    Okay, on the current game, I think I am proving that Regent is tough enough for me. I create a Small map with continents at 70%. I picked Persia to play. The map has 2 big continents that started with 3 civs each. I have expanded on my continent to dominate it. There are 2 remnant civs on tundra at the North. See first image.
    The other large continent is split between the 2 other strong civs. Arabia in the South (pink on map) and Koreans in the North (dark blue). At this point in 1630 AD I have galleons and a few frigates and have started building a few ironclads. Land units are cavalry and cannons plus a few riflemen and muskets.
    So this is a decision point. Where do I go next to expand (goal is a domination victory)? Who to attack. Arabs are 1st in points, about 150 ahead. My Persians are slightly ahead of Korea for 2nd place. I tried attacking the Arabs, a shorter sea voyage. I proceed in taking them out but it takes a long time. War weariness forces me to sign peace twice before it is done. After capturing capitol and Damascus it goes faster at the end. Culture flipping was a problem along the way a couple of times. So then I prepare to take on Korea. The cities taken from Arabs are all at high corruption and contributing next to nothing. I had paid to rush temples in at least w of them to get the culture expansion.
    The Koreans are a couple of techs ahead of me at least. And they had built a fair number of wonders along the way. He has a city with pop of 20 just across the land border so I aim to attack there. K has built up a LOT of troops. I get a counter-attack immediately with about 30 units. Also he sends out ships in stacks of 3 or 4. I think he had destroyers and a couple of carriers at this point. He uses them poorly but they are still impressive and need to be avoided. I try to blunt his attack as much as possible with siege weapons and troops. This reaches a stalemate and I try to build up to take the offensive again. Then I start getting hit by bombers first a few , then groups of 4 or more. I can't stop them. The damage and attrition is too much. So I take a save and abandon this approach.
    I go back to the save from 1630AD and prepare to attack Korea first. Also I eliminate the Portugal civ from my continent. In short this does not go well either. I am putting all I can in invading Korea and holding one city in his territory. I am doing pretty good at using cannon (and some artillery) to wear down his troops and cavalry and infantry to kill them with not much exposure. And I'm getting little invasions on islands and things. I can see it is slipping away.
    I can post a save file if anyone is interested. I'm sure there must be better approaches. Probably should build larger attack forces. But I get worried they are building up just as fast.
     

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  2. Aabraxan

    Aabraxan Mid-level Micromanager

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  3. CKS

    CKS Deity

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    A save would be helpful. Absent one, I have a couple of thoughts.
    First, rail your lands before starting a real war.
    Second, declare war against one of your main rivals, and then ally the other one. Let them fight for a while before you invade.
    Rail your lands as you acquire them, so you can move units around.
    If you have trouble making quick progress, raze some cities so you don't have to worry about flips. Use the workers to rail your lands.
    Plant cities of your own, so that if some place flips, you don't end up with a huge space you can't move through. Also, cities are cheaper than temples for filling in empty space and getting you to domination.
    If you have an army, send it out pillaging. This will slow the tech rate down and also deny them the resources they need to build infantry and bombers.
    If your new holdings are secure, switch sides when your alliance runs out, so you can pillage the other side, too. This will help you avoid having to face bombers.
    You might consider jumping your palace to the new lands if you get some good cities. Make sure you have courthouses and police stations if you want your old lands to still be somewhat productive. This late in the game, this may be a bad idea - it depends on the infrastructure you acquire.
     
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  4. justanick

    justanick Emperor

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    You should not think like this. This distracts you from the bigger truth.

    You should think why this is so. Why can you not keep up in tech? Think about economy and technology first. The military is just the result of how strong your economy and technology are.

    Replaceable parts are a crucial tech for warfare. What you probably should have done is to go for replaceable parts and abandon unneeded units if this saves you some gtp that are better invested into research. Once you have replaceable parts sell it to every other civ. Wait a few turns so they have a chance to utilize the tech. Then declare war upon you designated enemy Korea and buy every other civ into that war. Then wait again. Let the AIs destroy themselves. Intervene with your own troops 10 to 30 turns later, pending how the war goes.
     
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  5. patinthedesert

    patinthedesert Chieftain

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    Save is attached. This is at the point where I originally attacked Arabia. Which was ultimately successful but took about 50 turns.
    About getting an alliance to go to war with me. Not sure how much gold it takes to do this. I was not loaded with gold. I had mostly passed on building wonders to concentrate on expansion and conquests on my continent. The Immortals were very good for this. When I did have enough to build wonders I was losing the race to complete them in time. I think city placement was not ideal as the bigger cities were competing with each other and shield production was only so-so.

    I am just moving up from Warlord level the last 2 or 3 games. But I don't understand this. This seems like exactly the key technology that I don't want to share. Exploit the advantage in military has always been a key strategy with the style I'm used to.
     

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  6. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    The AIs research it as soon as they have Electricity. If you don't sell it to them, one AI will soon learn it and sell it to the others. The advantage comes from faster workers and artillery proper.
     
  7. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    Yes, there exist winning strategies for your game. The biggest thing I see is 11 workers for a few dozen cities! 2 workers per city or 1.5 if you're industrious is a good rule of thumb. You're nowhere close to that.

    The biggest advantage you have military wise over the AI is using bombard units to soften them up and then attack. I think the hardest part you have going forward is landing on Arabian territory. I wouldn't even worry about Korea, just use them to help fight the Arabs.
     
  8. justanick

    justanick Emperor

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    As a general rule: If you can sell a tech to AI, then do sell it to AI. This takes away money from AI while your pockets get filled which fuels your research.This is how you build up an advantage in tech in the long run.

    Regarding the concrete situation i surmised that there 2 important civs on the other continent. You want them to fight each other non-stop, but not for one of them to gain the upper hand. This will strengthen you in relative terms. For this it makes sense to help the weaker one with techs and resources, while stronger one is waged war against. For you this is just a phoney war, but this phoney war is used to create military alliances. Everyone is invited into the alliance for gtp.

    You donnot need gold, you need just gtp(gold per turn). Reduce your research rate during negotiations, as only an available surpluss in gtp will be accepted by AI. Declare war on the target. Check which civ will join the war cheapest. Usually this will be one of the weakers civs as they may accept technology to lower the amout of gtp. The next civ will ask for less gtp than before because the target has now more enemies. Rinse and repeat.

    Once you dominate your continent it makes sense to prioritize your economy and your research over waging further war. War is expensive. If possible you should not wage war yourself before you have gained a decisive advantage that will ensure swift victory. If war is to be waged on the other continent you tend to have the needed freedom of choice for abstaining from active warfare.

    If however you need to wage war to gain land because you have not yet exhausted the limited amount of cities with low corruption, then the rationale is a different one.
     
  9. patinthedesert

    patinthedesert Chieftain

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    This brings up another question. Yes the 1630 save shows 11 workers and 34 cities. So probably not enough. All are working on adding mines where possible or building rails. According to the Military Advisor, on Republic I get free support for 59 units and I have 77. And workers count toward that. So how much of a military support cost should be carried? Especially if (revised strategy), not going to war right away.

    Some of the cities to be developed have jungle tiles around them. It takes a lot of worker effort to clear them. So that ties up like 8 workers when I turn to that. 2 workers per jungle tile times 4 turns to complete.
     
  10. justanick

    justanick Emperor

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    Possibly a lot. Workers are needed, especially in the early middle age(or late ancient age if tech advances slowly) and in the early industrial age. That will use up a good portion of free unit support. So to stay within free units support you would need your military to stay low on numbers and disband all military that does not contribute enough. A small military can be acceptable if you feel reasonably safe. But to fight an enemy that is not weak you will most likely need a larger military which can easily cost 100 gtp. Research, diplomacy and warfare are heavily intertwined. You need to develop a feeling for what is reasonable and what is not. Most important: You need a long term plan.
     
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  11. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    Being over the unit support cap is not a big deal in general. You can sell tech for gpt or use taxmen in corrupt cities or lower research.
     
  12. justanick

    justanick Emperor

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    Using scientists rather than taxmen is of course more efficient.
     
  13. WeirdoJoker

    WeirdoJoker Prince

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    I've never quite understood how scientists work. With taxmen it's fairly obvious, and has (thus far) worked to increase my research capability. I often have trouble, though, once I hit the Modern Age - is that perhaps why?
     
  14. justanick

    justanick Emperor

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    Each one adds 3 beakers per turn, which is 50% more than the 2 gold per turn from a taxman. Obviously scientists instead of taxmen do increase your research. At the end of a tech rounding does matter.

    The effect is there, but the effect it unlikely to matter as much as as you seem to imply.
     
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  15. patinthedesert

    patinthedesert Chieftain

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    I went back into the game I had described. I backed up to before the war with Arabs started, 1580AD I think. I forgot this detail. - Arabs declare war on me. They have a small foothold on my continent and they send a couple of small invasions. One galleon of troops sometimes only 2 units. I get rid of these quickly. But lose 2 frigates to a galleon at one point! And build more workers, cavalry and cannon. Once cleared on the nearby islands, asked for peace - for now. meanwhile tried to make friends with Korea. Started with status of Annoyed, then I did 2 or 3 trades with him. Now have MPP - at a cost. Also eliminate Port who had just 2 cities. Mines and rails are mostly done. So I want to build up until Replaceable Parts at least. Then get Korea involved in war with Arabia. Do I have to invade or just Declare to trigger MPP? I'll find out soon...View is for my continent plus big and small islands.
    Persia1685.png
     
  16. patinthedesert

    patinthedesert Chieftain

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    Also still trying to figure out how to add images. This was pasted to Paint then cropped, savedto .png file and uploaded. Looks kind of big.
     
  17. CKS

    CKS Deity

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    In order to trigger the MPP, you need to be attacked _in your own land_.
     
  18. r16

    r16 not deity

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    ı always play at monarch , my military success depends on save and reload but the thing relevant to this thread is if you want a tech lead and do not want to trade techs , wonders are the priority , bar none . Great Library , Lighthouse if you can . Leonardo also required , so that you will not "have" to disband old units . Library dies quicker in the epic game in contrast to the mod ı play but still useful . Such a wonders game (ı believe) creates an option to micro manage a few cities in your core , each with full amount of tiles to work and cover the lack of expansion you might have had in the beginning . You can always fill the map with a single scientist cities , to produce a catapult every 30 turns , later ...
     
  19. justanick

    justanick Emperor

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    I strongly disagree. Wonders are prestige projects. They are expensive and tend to yield little gains. One of the first thing to learn when moving up the difficulty latter is to not build wonders, at least in general. If for some reason you have shields to spare you might as well spend them on wonders.

    MPP is defensive, it works the opposite way. Arabia would need to attack Korea, this would then make you automatically declare war on Arabia.

    Most players avoid MPP. What you should have done at a point of your convenience is to declare war on Arabia and then sign a military alliance with Korea against Arabia. Or wait till they are at war with each other and then sign a military alliance with Korea against Arabia.


    You should not build temples or colloseums. They cost as much gtp as they are worth in content faces, so they are almost worthless.

    You should build more settlers to cover as many tiles possible and let your cities grow. The primary goal is to utilize every tile you can get your hands on. You need workers to improve every tile and every tile should be worked by a citizen. This will strenghten your economic base. Build courthouses, aqueducts, libraries, marketplaces and universities to increase your economic output.

    In principal your goal should be to have all your cities at size 10+ by the middle of the middle age. Instead you are in the industrial age with many towns smaller than size 7 and are paying unit support for troops from the ancient age. This is quite a discrepancy from what makes sense. Your really need to put a greater focus on your economic build up.

    After you have mastered the economic build up a strong military is built up within relative few turns. That is the easy part. And after you have build up a strong military warfare also will be somewhat easy. The problem you are facing is not primarily one of diplomacy or warfare, but of having made the wrong decisions in the ancient age and the middle ages. City placement and economic build up are what you need to learn.
     
  20. r16

    r16 not deity

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    some specific taste ı must remind that the player wants to stay ahead . ı am playing Monarch for 10 years at least by now , ı have abandoned so many games and yet ı have also finished many games . None of them would make it to Hall of Fame on this site and they were not fast either . But very rarely ı would see my Modern Armour armies challenged by anything worthwhile . ı have been nuked maybe twice or three times over this decade .
     

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