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Is there a written series of principles for the overall vision?

Discussion in 'Gedemon's Civilization, a total overhaul project' started by FromTheSand, Apr 9, 2019.

  1. FromTheSand

    FromTheSand Chieftain

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2019
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    I stumbled upon this fascinating work when looking at the basics of Civilization Mods because I wanted to, also, make a few changes on the logic of the game that would increase it.

    I found many threads about ideas, but it feels to me like a series of brainstorm on things you'd like to see changed, but there isn't a "single unified vision" that ties them together. I really like some of the basic concepts, like local trade routes, support lines for armies, new tech innovation, but while they seem like fun, they could also bog the game down in a thousand small rules – which is the part of the CIV game I dislike the most.

    Personally, I was thinking that the game should go in the opposite direction: unify a lot of the core concepts into a few simpler rules, and let these rules emerge in a rich and complex game that gains all those features naturally. It helps people understand better the game vision and even contribute to it, since you can share a common goal of trying to make sense of the rules and their ramifications.

    I'd love to discuss more, but I wonder if there's even any active development still, as many of the threads haven't had new comments since end of 2017..

    Cheers!
     
  2. Gedemon

    Gedemon Modder Moderator

    Joined:
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    France
    I also don't like how each element of the current game feels completely separated (which I think is something planned by the devs, to allow people that are not interested by some of those mechanisms to still be able to play the game and have fun with it), and my main objective is to restore the feeling of building an Empire based on an coherent "background simulation" (as opposed to the current civ6 feeling which is to win as fast a possible a multilayered game played on a board, yes, possibly a good board game, but not what I expect from a Civilization computergame)

    I'd also like to keep rules relatively simple for the users, while the background may be complex, I do want people to be able to play without having to look at the details if they don't want to. Simple rules is also a pre-requisite for a decent AI.

    About the current development, the Gathering Storm initial patch was bad news for my main mods, I had a hard month following it to try (and fail with the current tools) to update everything to be stable again, and this particular mod is still unplayable since, so I've taken a small break waiting for some eventual fixes on Firaxis side.

    But while I'm not actively modding (or moderating) I still monitor a few threads here and on Steam, and I'll be back at some point, hopefully sooner than later...

    So I can discuss, just note that, as said in the OP of the development thread, I'm not looking for new ideas, I think we have enough to keep me busy coding for a decade, but feels free to bump the older threads to give feedbacks on the actual concepts, propose modifications or ask how things may interact, having those kind of discussions before doing the actual coding can help a lot (I mean it's how it should be done if I was doing this professionally, but as we don't have complete control on what we can do, I code proof of concept first, no point in planning things we can't do)
     
    Knasp likes this.
  3. FromTheSand

    FromTheSand Chieftain

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2019
    Messages:
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    Hahaha, that's the annoying thing about ideas, right, everyone has them, and there's not enough makers to go around. I have coding experience but to be fair I'm a bit hesitant of trying mods because CIV is such addictive time draining hobby that I think I could fall down on a terribly unproductive hole if I started. It's been 10 years probably since I last played, and since having downloaded CIV6 recently (I started at CIV1!) I spent a lot more time obsessing over the game, the rules and the mods, that I should. So maybe all I want is to talk about it with some active members.

    But here's the thing I see: a lot of what CIV is, and a lot of the proposed changes you are making to the game in the end can be summed up to a few very basic concepts which could both make the game a lot easier to play and learn, but a lot more complex to play. In the end, it seems that most concepts boil down to tiles (including improvements), units and resources, and by making them further down that road, by making ALL the game mechanics either a tile, a unit or a tradable resource, it could get a lot simpler.

    • Tiles (depending on their types and improvements) create resources every turn and can hold a given amount of them
    • Units (depending on their types and upgrades) cost resources every turn, can move around, collect resources, create (mostly small) trading networks and do other actions
    • When a given combination of tiles, units and resources are in the same place, you can create more units or tiles
    It seems obvious, but here's how many game mechanics could be simplified to that:

    * City growth could be simplified as the production of a unit citizen which requires X of food and has the ability to harvest resources and create a trade network of a very short distance (1-4 tiles in the early game)
    * When a citizen is in a tile they harvest that tile's output and create a small trade network to the nearby city sending it there
    * Culture and Science can be though as resources that are also harvested by citizens and sent to the nearby city
    * Since almost every unit has a trade network, it can redirect the resources they have to others, so maybe all science and culture is redirected to the capital, where the campus does the new tech/civics research which is just like any production
    * Amenities are a resource created by some tiles, which then are redistributed to other citizens. Instead of amenities affecting the "city growth rate" they simply affect individual citizens: if a citizen lacks food they die, but if they lack amenities, they will simply stop producing that turn, or worst, they will simply walk away and go to another civ (or become a "barbarian")
    * Housing can also be thought as resources that can only be sent a small amount of tiles: a factory is an improvement that needs 1 housing per turn for every worker they have on their slot, a neighborhood is a tile that can produce housing every turn and can send it to those who need. If a unit doesn't have enough housing it will improvise one and create (against the player's will) a "slum" in a free tile, which will generate houses but reduce production of amenities in all tiles adjacent to it.
    * Production: building a unit is really a matter of getting enough resources and building it in 1 turn, which means that the actual time and cost of something will depend on many factors – if your supply of iron is cut by barbarians, or if the price of oil goes up, it will change your estimated duration time.


    I'm not saying the interface would necessarily need to change (although it would be cool to have it all integrated into one, instead of a bunch of separate menus). This of course doesn't actually change anything on the game, but it allows a lot of cool concepts, which I've seen proposed by your mod. Here's how they go well together:

    * Supply lines and "away from home" mechanic: instead of adding more complexity to the combat logic, you could simply make that some units have special resources they need for maintenance and production: so a mounted unit would require, say 50 production, 25 food and 5 horses to make, 5 food + 1 horse to heal and 1 food food per turn + 0.1 horse per turn (or "1 horse every 10 turn"). That will automatically be discounted first from the current tile, then from their own supplies and then from the supply of a city within a trade route range. You can add the "far from home" or loyalty mechanic by making them require faith or culture, otherwise they might decide to rebel and become barbarians..

    * The Exodus mechanic you were proposing, could simply be transformed in another need for culture: if any unit lows short on their culture or faith supply, they become free units and move elsewhere. If enough units in a city do that, the city might rebel against your rule. Actually once you separate the idea of improvements needing to be on a city, you can have much more interesting mechanics, in which you can have "peaceful barbarians" (or just free citizens), which are small farms, fishing villages, trading posts that are created by citizens not associated with any civ. These can keep existing for centuries as small wandering trader tribes or evolve into a city state or a new civilization.

    * New science tech tree and automatic scientific dispersion in nearby civilizations could also be simplified: science as a resource can be tradable and sent to nearby cities. Or you can take away the whole tech tree as a whole and make it all in units and resources: having fish in your city will generate not only food but fishing knowledge, which if you have enough you can build the "fishing tech". The fishing tech allows you to build fisherman units, which generate slowly, also "sailing knowledge", and so on. Notice this would also generate a few interesting side effects for free: by killing or capturing all the fisherman in a civilization not only you can steal their tech, they will lose theirs and have to start from scratch by either buy

    * Social classes: come in this system completely for free, without having to generate a new special rule for them. Since all citizens are really units stationed in a tile, their social class will depend on their "job". You can have a visualization of a city showing how many farmers, factory workers or fisherman they have, as compared to how many people working in campi, castles and churches.


    I think you get where I'm coming from. I could go on on how you can make the trading mechanic, how resources go from one city to the other way before the "trading" tech is enabled, and how it all connects. My point is: I'm a big fan of making simple rules and letting them play out in very complex scenarios that better reflect reality (or are just more fun) instead of just adding a series of overlapping new rules trying to mimic the end result you want.

    (if you read all of that until here, thanks! It felt good to put it out of my chest)
     
  4. Knasp

    Knasp Warlord

    Joined:
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    Welcome to the mod's sub-forum! I don't mind giving some feedback on your design, though I'd undrrstand if Gedemon would rather move this thread to the general 'Ideas& Suggestions' section of the forum.

    I believe Cities, Citizens, Housing, Amenities and City production are all hardcoded unfortuneately.

    The number of Citizens (tiles that you can choose to work) is directly tied to the City size.
    Even if it were possible to mod, it seems to me that having Citizens as units would mean a lot of possibly tedious micromanagement.
    For e.g. how many "citizen units" would you need to move around every turn?

    Unfortunately the A.I. can't use custom unit actions. So either you have to think in terms of utilizing the current in-game actions, or otherwise the harvesting would need to be done behind-the-scenes (script at the end/beginning of a turn).

    If using the in-game harvest action, I suppose you'd need to bring back the resource every time it's harvested. So that you can harvest the same tile again. Another problem with the harvest action, that i can think of, is that I think it's disabled if there's an improvement on the tile.

    Overall, the limiting factor for modding this kind of thing is the A.I. If you add a new mechanisms and an interface for producing things (outside of cities), the A.I. wouldn't be able to use it. Automatic behind-the-scenes mechanisms seems to work best when they are built upon or supplement existing game-mechanics.
    The A.I. can select tiles to work in Cities based on the tile yields. And they could possibly be incentivized to produce and use more units for harvesting. But they can't take into account any behind-the-scenes yields and resource gains. At least, that's my impression of the A.I. and I could be wrong.

    Finally, I think your ideas are cool and exciting on their own. As for Gedemon's mod, I think there are many of us who like the way it's heading.

    I think you could roll back your Civ6 to the version before GS was released, if you want to try it out. In my mind it's quite exciting how Gedemon has managed to code and tie together:
    • Automatic resource transfers between units and cities based on supply lines. As well as trade between cities based on supply/demand.
    • Automatic unit type conversion based on the unit's equipment
    • Population on tiles, i.e. a urban/rural divide with somewhat realistic population numbers
    • Population growth and migration based on push and pull factors.
    • Social stratification combined with housing and taxation
    • Research fields and contribution from different sources, not just academic research
    • Etc
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2019
    steemroller likes this.

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