Is there any reason to vote for John McCain?

[Halcyon]

Seriously. Not a reason to vote against Obama, but a reason to like McCain on his own merits for something he has done or wants to do.


Seems to me that the McCain campaign has been thoroughly sleazy, deceptive and woefully mismanaged. One can't help but wonder whether a McCain presidency would be any different, and if so - why?

On top of that, he's a pretty horrible guy. Yeah, he seemed pretty cool in 2000, but on closer inspection he's kinda despicable in lots of ways.

Here, someone made a list of things he's said and done. It's not comprehensive and some of it is a bit trivial, but, well. I've bolded some of the worst bits... which turns out to be quite a lot.

John McCain:

* finished fifth from last in his class of 894 at Annapolis
* during the Vietnam war, wanted to bomb Soviet ships
* during the Vietnam war, said he wanted to bomb more than military targets
* blamed POW collaboration with NVA forces on "the divisive forces which had come into focus as a result of the antiwar movement in the United States."
* divorced his wife Carol, who had waited for him while he was in Vietnam, who had been in a horrible car accident, for a multi-millionaire heiress he had met a year before the divorce
* married Cindy one month after the divorce
* was widely known to be unfaithful during his marriage
* moved to Arizona for political reasons; the day after his predecessor announced his upcoming retirement, Cindy bought a house in the district
* was elected to congress in part due to his friendship with Darrow Tully, publisher of the AZ Republic, who gave him free editorial space
* voted against the Martin Luther King Jr. holiday; later said that he didn't know much about MLK at the time, and that "I had not really been involved in the issue."
* did not comment when Tully's numerous war stories about himself (Tully) were revealed to be all lies
* was part of the Keating 5
* Cindy stole prescription medication to feed an addiction for 3 years
* Cindy was accused (never convicted) of threatening an employee to keep quiet about the thefts
* vigorously lobbied to have investigations of his friend Gov. Fife Symington halted; Symington was convicted of bank fraud, to which McCain said that Symington had been running the state well
* When a different governor fell under similar circumstances, McCain went after him
* When it was suggested that he showed preference to Symington that he didn't show to Mecham, said ''I really won't answer that kind of insinuation… I do what's best for the state. I do what's best for the country."
* voted to convict Bill Clinton on impeachment charges
* led the congressional attempt to force Clinton to send ground troops into Serbia
* "I hated the gooks. I will hate them as long as I live."
* voted to authorize the Iraq war
* ate birthday cake with President Bush several hours after the levees at New Orleans broke; later, McCain blasted Bush's tepid and slow response
* “I’m going to be honest: I know a lot less about economics than I do about military and foreign policy issues. I still need to be educated.” Denied saying this in a primary debate.
* “The issues of economics is not something I’ve understood as well as I should.”
* added Arthur Laffer and Phil Gramm to his campaign economics staff
* I don’t have sufficient knowledge to know if he has cut interest rates sufficiently or not.”
* debate question, are Americans better off than they were 8 years ago: “I think you could argue that Americans overall are better off.”
Today show, soon after, when asked the same question: “Oh no. No.”
* says that he can save $100 billion by cutting earmarks; campaign later denies this claim. Has said saving $100B would not come from military; this would necessitate a 18.5% across the board cut in every other discretionary spending program, including education, veteran’s health, highways.
* favors repealing the alternative minimums tax, 90% of the benefits going to six-figure families; this would cost $1.6 trillion over 10 years; claim of an average of $2000/family mostly weighted by highest earners.
* says that Obama and Clinton want to create the largest tax increase since WW2; it would be the fifth-largest and is not even an increase, but merely allowing Bush’s cuts to expire.
* opposed Bush's tax cuts
* supported Bush's tax cuts
* wants to cut capital gains taxes.
* wants to remove federal gasoline taxes
* claimed that 401ks are taxed by the capital gains tax (they are not) and used this to further his point that “[Obama] obviously doesn’t understand the economy.”
* claimed Obama wanted to double the capital gains tax; Obama said no more than double (which is what it was under Clinton) and probably much lower.
* was revealed along with his wife to owe $100,00-250,000 in credit card debt
* supported ID being taught in schools; now opposes that
* “Bomb, Bomb, Bomb, Bomb, Bomb Iran”
* slept through portions of Bush’s 2007 State of the Union address
* having been tortured for five years, joined the party that prolonged his torture, blasted Romney at a debate for supporting torture, now McCain himself supports torture
* at a Smith & Wesson plant, “I will follow Osama Bin Laden to the gates of hell and I will shoot him with your products.”
* Chief Advisor of McCain’s campaign, Charlie Black, lobbied for numerous dictators in Asia and Africa; Black said he didn’t do anything wrong
* Richard Davis is one of McCain’s friends, advisers, and campaign chairs; Davis was paid $395,000 to lobby on behalf of the telecom industry; McCain, as chairman of the Commerce Committee, supported a Cablevision bid despite a government report saying that it would lead to higher prices.
* two campaign staffers forced to resign; they had lobbied on behalf of Myanmar’s repressive government in 2002
* Cindy, after an AP article outed her, sells her investments in mutual funds that invested in the Sudanese government
* describes Roberts, Alito his favorite justices
* called the League of Democracies the “League of Nations”
* says that Bush’s warrantless wiretaps are legal
* STEWART: There was one comment-- and this could have been taken out of context as well-- you felt that Hamas endorsed Obama? Did they officially--
McCAIN: A spokesperson from Hamas said they wanted Senator Obama, but that's-- that's --
STEWART: Do you feel bad you said that? Because that is-- if you think about it--
McCAIN: A spokesperson said that, and I think --
STEWART: And you take Hamas at their word?
McCAIN: No, but it's indicative of how some of our enemies view America. I guarantee you, they're not going to endorse me.
* says talking to Hamas is naïve; two years prior, in an interview with James Rubin of Sky News, said that negotiations with Hamas were inevitable, and the current (Bush) admin had to get used to that; in 2003 had said that even though Syria sponsored and harbored terrorists, it was worth talking to them
* was in favor of negotiations with Cuba; no longer is
* constantly confuses Shia and Sunni
* says that Al Qaeda get training in Iran
* insists that Ahmadinejad was the leader of Iran, not Khamenei, despite reality being what it is
* campaign staff didn’t know enough about computers to disable comments on campaign youtube videos.
* and didn’t know enough about computers to disable comments on website store
* and his campaign stole a recipe from Rachel Ray / the Food Network website for Cindy’s website; was called on it; did it again with another recipe from the Hershey’s website
* campaign actively sought Hagee’s endorsement until the “Hitler was a hunter” video came out
* actively opposed the GI bill that would increase education benefits to soldiers; was one of three senators who didn’t vote on it (one was in the hospital and one was at a funeral; he was campaigning)
* used a picture of Gen. Petraeus in fundraising material (military members are not allowed to do this)
* “That’s not change we can believe in.”
* “We should be able to deliver hot water to dehydrated babies.”
* “The media often overlooked how compassionately [Hillary] spoke to the concerns and dreams of millions.” Three days later denied saying this: “I did not [say that]—that was in prepared remarks, and I did not [say it]—I’m not in the business of commenting on the press and their coverage or not coverage”
* when asked if he had an idea of when troops would be coming home, said "No, but that's not too important. What's important is the casualties in Iraq."
* after the Supreme Court ruled that Guantanamo prisoners have some rights, "The United States Supreme Court yesterday rendered a decision which I think is one of the worst decisions in the history of this country," McCain said. He went on to quote from Justice Roberts dissent in the case, rail against "unaccountable judges," and say that the courts are about to be clogged with cases from detainees. Called it a case about “so-called, ‘Habeas Corpus,’ suits.”
* his daughter did not switch parties from Independent to Republican until 2008
* refuses to return money taken from a fundraiser hosted by Clayton Williams, who said of rape, “As long as it’s inevitable, you might as well lie back and enjoy it.”
* at a Town Hall meeting, was asked why we haven’t caught bin Laden yet; McCain got pissed, started rambling about the Diamondbacks and Yankees and Rudy Giuliani on a screen, said as President, Bin Laden would be caught (Guess this means Bin Laden is still safe for another few months) and people were laughing that McCain wasn't answering the question.
* concerning Cheney: “I don’t know if I would want him as vice president. He and I have the same strengths. But to serve in other capacities? Hell, yeah.”
* constantly refers to his imprisonment by the North Vietnamese
* keeps on him at all times a lucky compass, lucky feather, lucky penny, and sometimes a lucky rock; an aide carries his lucky pen; always wears his lucky shoes (LL Bean rubber-soled dress shoes)
* "One of the things I would do if I were President would be to sit the Shiites and the Sunnis down and say, 'Stop the bulls**t,'"
* McCain refuses to answer a question about whether or not he supports Bush’s abstinence-only policy in Africa; when asked if he supported condom distribution, was silent; when asked about his policy on sex ed in the USA, said “I think I support the president’s policy;” when asked if he thought contraceptives helped stop the spread of HIV, said “You’ve stumped me.” Asked an aide for his policy paper on the subject; couldn’t find it; finished by saying “I’ve never gotten into these issues before.”
* “Still,...McCain has yet to find his voice on domestic issues--his response to a question about crime among teen girls veered from a Little Rock mentoring program to Nicaraguan drug lords to securing the Mexican border to the rural meth epidemic, then ended with the not-so-confident words, "I intend to enlist the help of the people who know these problems best"”
* “I will veto every single beer”
* that creepy fake smile
* “I’m not for, quote, privatizing social security; I never have been, I never will be.”
* “Without privatization, I don’t see how you can possibly over time make sure that young Americans are able to receive social security benefits.”
* said he supported a cap-and-trade system, but no mandatory caps
* supports clean coal
* wants to end the offshore drilling ban of 1981 (opponents include Republican Governors Schwarzenegger and Crist)
* the description of McCain’s autobiography is by the author of The Unmaking Of Americans: How Multiculturalism has Undermined the Assimilation Ethic and Our Oldest Enemy: A History of America's Disastrous Relationship with France
* when asked to name an inspirational author, said “Joel Osteen”
* Republican John McCain's campaign accused Barack Obama of having a dangerous and naive Sept. 10 mind-set toward terrorism because the Democrat spoke approvingly of the successful prosecution and imprisonment of those responsible for the 1993 World Trade Center bombings.
* suggested that, as a new idea, like divestment from South Africa to fight apartheid, we should divest from Iran; a bipartisan bill presented by Obama and Brownback in 2007 said just that exact same thing; McCain voted against it; one of his main campaign advisers lobbies for an Iranian steel company; McCain opposed divestment from South Africa at the time.
* "We have had some success working with the Pakistanis in a low visible fashion. Should they be more helpful? Of couse they shoud be. Should the Saudis be more helpful? Should the Jordanians be more helpful? Should the Egyptians? We are giving billions of dollars a year to the Egytians, as you know, and they should be more helpful. Should the Mexicans be more helpful? Everybody should be more helpful." (lazy Mexicans)
* calls Obama an elitist; sells golf equipment on his website.
* does not support Amtrak
* collects $58,000 per year from the government in disability (nb: he has a 9-figure fortune)
* Does not know how to use a computer or the internet (in 2008!); as forums poster B. HUSSEIN OBAMA said “this is the kind of person who the republicans nominate for president of america in 2008: a guy who can't use a computer”
* said that the nation is founded on “Christian principles”
* in 86 exploded at a young campaign worker for setting up a podium that was too tall; he had just won his senate election.
* McCain and Phoenix mayor Paul Johnson have a volatile argument in front of other Arizona mayors; ''He says, 'Start a tape recorder. It's best when you get a liar on tape,' '' Johnson recalled. ''Oh, gosh, you never dealt with a more brutal individual,'' Johnson said. ''He was very tough.''
* according to two anonymous witnesses and a reporter, McCain angrily replied to his wife’s comment about his thinning hair by saying “At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c**t.”
* in 96 got in a brief scuffle with Strom Thurmond
* said to Sen. Pete Domenici, “Only an rear end in a top hat would put together a budget like this.” After Domenici told him no one had ever called him that, McCain said “I wouldn’t call you an rear end in a top hat unless you were really an rear end in a top hat.”
* in 2000 Sen. Grassley said, “Are you calling me stupid?” McCain replied, “I’m calling you a f***ing jerk.”
* screamed “f**k you” at John Cornyn on the senate floor, followed by “This is chickenhorsehocky stuff,” when asked about provisions of his amnesty bill.
* “Because I know that as successful as I believe we will be, and I believe that the success will be fairly easy, we will still lose some American young men or women.” [CNN, 9/24/02]
* “We’re not going to get into house-to-house fighting in Baghdad. We may have to take out buildings, but we’re not going to have a bloodletting of trading American bodies for Iraqi bodies.” [CNN, 9/29/02]
* “But the point is that, one, we will win this conflict. We will win it easily.” [MSNBC, 1/22/03]
* “But I believe, Katie, that the Iraqi people will greet us as liberators.” [NBC, 3/20/03]
* “It’s clear that the end is very much in sight.” [ABC, 4/9/03]
* “There’s not a history of clashes that are violent between Sunnis and Shiahs. So I think they can probably get along.” [MSNBC, 4/23/03]
* Voted in favor of prayer in public schools
* Voted against the ERA
* Voted in favor of tobacco subsidies
* Voted against the Clean Air Act
* Voted against the Katrina Commission (twice)
* Voted against extended Medicaid access for Katrina victims
* Voted against extended unemployment assistance for Katrina victims
* Voted against extending troop deployment times in the USA to match deployment times in Iraq
* Voted consistently from 2003-2007 against additional funding for Walter Reed Army Medical Center
* Voted consistently from 2003-2007 against additional funding for Walter Reed Army Medical Center
* Voted to table a bill that would have provided funding and equipment for Guard and Reserve units
* Voted against legal definitions of torture
* Voted against closing a future market loophole that led to the Enron disasters in California; said the market needed less regulation, not more; the money saved from closing this loophole would have reduced medical and pharmaceutical copays for soldiers
* Voted against Everglades restoration
* Skipped over a dozen votes on Iraq in the senate
* was indirectly responsible for the deaths of 21 shopkeepers in Baghdad's Shorja marketplace, after visiting and saying it was perfectly safe
* "There are neighborhoods in Baghdad where you and I could walk through those neighborhoods today."
* General Petraeus goes out there [Iraq] almost everyday in an unarmored humvee."
* "I meant that there are neighborhoods that are safe in Iraq, and he does go out into Baghdad, and the fact is there has been significant progress..."
* "I'm not say that they [VIPs] could go without protection. The president goes around America with protection. So I certainly didn't say that."
* Unidentified Reporter: "[On 26 Mar] You said there are areas in Baghdad that you can walk around freely."
McCain: "Yeah, I just came from one."
* McCain's escort through Shorja was 100+ soldiers, sniper teams, 10 armored humvees, 3 blackhawk helicopters, 2 apache gunships, predator drone coverage; McCain was wearing a bulletproof vest and allowed to take off his helmet only when authorized
* says that Obama can’t understand Iraq since he hasn’t been there since 2006

So we've got corruption, hypocrisy, outright lies, violence, a seeming lack of ethics or morality, wilful ignorance of foreign and economic affairs...

As I said, kinda doesn't seem like someone you'd trust to run a country.

There's also the franky terrifying prospect of President Palin if he dies in the next four years - which as a 72-year old man in mediocre health with a history of cancer and a family history of dying from sudden, massive heart attacks is sadly not that unlikely.

Of course, a lot of people are going to vote (for either candidate) based on party loyalty, or cultural/ideological identity ("I am a ..."). This is understandable, albeit not particularly laudable, but it is not technically a reason.

So, is there a reason?

 

[Perfection]

Well, if I was John McCain I would vote for John McCain. So being John McCain is a reason for voting for John McCain.

 

[Arwon]

Similarly, being his wife is probably a good reason. Probably.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

So we've got corruption, hypocrisy, outright lies, violence, a seeming lack of ethics or morality, wilful ignorance of foreign and economic affairs...

Right, you have established he is a politician.

Now where do we go from there?

 

[Kraznaya]

Now where do we go from there?

Turn the lights down now!

 

[Berzerker]

I prefer his economics to the wealth spreader

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Well, I prefer intellectuals over sound biters, but hey, beggars can't be chosers.

 

[Kraznaya]

I prefer his economics to the wealth spreader

The Economist as well as the plurality of leading economists have endorsed Obama

 

[RedRalph]

Fighting with Strum Thormond might actually make me vote for him

whats the thing about wanting to bomb soviet ships in the Vietnam war?

 

[Gorey]

here's two reasons why....
http://www.citizenslim.com/

anyone considering voting for obama is naive.

 

[El_Machinae]

Bolding his disability income shows that the OP doesn't know much about McCain's finances. He's owed that money, he's disabled. And he does some pretty impressive things with his income.

Anyway, reasons I'd vote for McCain:
- I'd trust him to use his veto pen. I may not agree with his conception of 'pork' 100% of the time, and its overuse could backfire (i.e., more pork to make a bill veto-proof ala Farm Bill), but I think it's a good idea.
- his emphasis on energy development is pretty good. I like other plan better, but this plan is pretty good.
- his moderate nature: I happen to like it. He really does reach across the ilse
- keeping troops in Iraq. I don't think the US should bail out. Now troops might not be necessary, but the US should still be trying to fix Iraq.
- he's decently pro-stem cell research, and concerned about Global Warming.


Why others might want to vote for him (in addition to the above)
- they like nuclear power
- they like the idea of every family getting $5,000 in taxpayer money to spend on healthcare
- they're hoping for President Palin
- maybe John McCain is the right guy to help fix that stupid Farm Bill.
- They want a slightly different tack on foreign policy
- they want a guy who won't look like a hypocrite if the populace decides it does need to bomb Iran.

 

[LightFang]

You should vote for McCain because he will lower your taxes!

 

[Loppan Torkel]

The whole comedic aspect to seeing McCain/Palin run the US. It could be a bit more exciting for the rest of the world, like a docusoap with interesting characters, and the Letterman- and Lenoshow will probably be a bit funnier.

 

[IglooDame]

That's a pretty moronic list, all told. Sure some of them are perfectly valid, but many are taken completely out of context (of course he wasn't aware of MLK at the time, he was in a Hanoi prison), some of them are only negative if you're a partisan Democrat ("voted to convict Bill Clinton on impeachment charges"), some of them are splitting hairs ("doubling" vs "no more than doubling" capital gains taxes), and many of them are either cool or funny (at a Smith & Wesson plant, “I will follow Osama Bin Laden to the gates of hell and I will shoot him with your products”; “I wouldn’t call you an rear end in a top hat unless you were really an rear end in a top hat.”).

 

[Patroklos]

Seriously, how many of these copycat threads do we have to go through?

As to the OP's question...

1.) Far superior energy policy in every respect.
2.) Superior health care plan, and more importantly accomplishable.
3.) When McCain says "Bomb Iran" and Obama says "Invade Pakistan," one of them knows what that actually entails for people like me.
4.) I think he will actually reduce wasteful spending.

 

[RedRalph]

Patroklos I'm not fan of Obama, but did he actually use the word invade about Pakistan? I thought he just said take military action against?

 

[Halcyon]

Right, you have established he is a politician.

Now where do we go from there?

Heh, okay. It's still important, though, because his opponent has built a reputation for not being (much of) a sleazy git. It makes him look pretty bad in comparison; if you care about any of those attributes

Fighting with Strum Thormond might actually make me vote for him

Yeah, he's not exactly the nicest guy. That said, restraint is kinda important for someone in charge of the scariest military on the planet. I've heard a lot of anecdotes about McCain's bad temper.

I prefer his economics to the wealth spreader

His economics are mostly the rather questionable "trickle-down" type, though. Can I ask why you prefer that?

Also, it seems to me that Obama's "wealth spreading" is just reversing Bush's tax cuts for the wealthy while lowering taxes for something like 95% of earners. I'm not quite sure what is so Leninist about that. Can you elaborate? I guess Republican pundits make it sound like he's going to beat you up and give your cash to gangsters, or something, but all I see is regular old progressive taxation. Would a flat tax/poll tax/no tax be preferable?

Bolding his disability income shows that the OP doesn't know much about McCain's finances. He's owed that money, he's disabled. And he does some pretty impressive things with his income.

I concede the point - he does have a right to it. It just seems a little off to oppose social security, veterans' benefits, national health cover, etc - whilst taking government money that you don't really need.

Anyway, reasons I'd vote for McCain:
- I'd trust him to use his veto pen. I may not agree with his conception of 'pork' 100% of the time, and its overuse could backfire (i.e., more pork to make a bill veto-proof ala Farm Bill), but I think it's a good idea.
* Can you veto specific parts of a bill? Also, do you think he's actually keep vetoing bills until they're pork-free? It'd be a good stand, but it would likely mean vetoing everything repeatedly - I doubt anyone would accept the amount of ill will this would generate. Chances are, people'd start questioning why the president has the power to effectively silence the Senate/House. Plus, the Dems are on course for 56/7 seats, not counting the independents. He'd only have to annoy one or two Republican senators for a bill to be veto-proof. Plus then there's the 2010 senate elections...
- his emphasis on energy development is pretty good. I like other plan better, but this plan is pretty good.
* Yeah, energy's a big deal. If you like the other plan better, though, it's still not a reason.
- his moderate nature: I happen to like it. He really does reach across the ilse
* This was one of his greatest strengths in 2000, but he seems to have abandoned it in order to shore up his base. There's the chance that he's only faking, and he actually is willing to compromise, but it seems shaky at best.
- keeping troops in Iraq. I don't think the US should bail out. Now troops might not be necessary, but the US should still be trying to fix Iraq.
* If you think that's best, then that's probably a reason. In counterargument, though, there was that 'in Iraq for 100 years' comment of his, plus the ongoing financial cost of the war, plus the need for Iraqi self-sufficiency (sooner or later), plus the diplomatic consequences of making the entire world hate/fear the US still more, but okay.
- he's decently pro-stem cell research, and concerned about Global Warming.
* It is nice that he isn't completely anti-science. Again, though, Obama is a lot stronger on this, plus there's the chance of Palin.


Why others might want to vote for him (in addition to the above)
- they like nuclear power
* Nuclear power is neat, so I'm down with that. It's only a stopgap, though, and it's really expensive.
- they like the idea of every family getting $5,000 in taxpayer money to spend on healthcare
* This versus every family getting whatever they need for healthcare via a national health service, though. Done well, it'd be far better, especially since insurance company profits aren't interfering - plus if you've ever had the misfortune of trying to get one of them to actually pay up...
- they're hoping for President Palin
* They're mad. She's mad.
- maybe John McCain is the right guy to help fix that stupid Farm Bill.
* Good luck getting anyone in the US government to stand up to the corn lobby. Thems love their subsidies, the leeches.
- They want a slightly different tack on foreign policy
* ...
- they want a guy who won't look like a hypocrite if the populace decides it does need to bomb Iran.
* Why on earth would there be a need to attack Iran, though? It seems to me all they've actually done is made vague, empty threats against Israel (the strongest military power in the middle east - and a nuclear power - which is in no danger, and which has responded with plenty of belligerence of its own).
Frankly the chance of the US starting another pointless war of aggression against an undeserving nation is a very, very strong reason not to vote for McCain. Persia's cool in my book, honestly. It'd be sad to see the place razed to the ground, hundreds of thousands dead, forever hating the West for their brutal oppression, etc. You know most Iranians quite like the US? Even despite past interference in the country - like the time the US overthrew their democratic government and installed an oppressive monarchy. The US took over 'screw over Persia' duty when the British and Russian empires gave it up, and it'd be nice if the US would knock it off. One day Iran will be a fairly kickass stable free democracy, and I don't think a US attack now would actually help with that. The US is already enough of a villain in the world's eyes.

You should vote for McCain because he will lower your taxes!

As I understand it, this is only true if you're earning over $1/4mil per annum. Odds are, you aren't. If you are, that might be a reason.

That's a pretty moronic list, all told...

Yeah, I did say that some of them were trivial or unfair. It's not my list; just thought it'd be interesting. That some of them are silly doesn't automatically invalidate the rest, though.

 

[frekk]

The list may be somewhat flawed, but I find it interesting that apart from comedic responses, only one person has attempted to answer the OPs core question.

 

[Patroklos]

Patroklos I'm not fan of Obama, but did he actually use the word invade about Pakistan? I thought he just said take military action against?

I was being deliberately sarcastic, McCain didn't really say bomb Iran either. The point is, when each decide to indulge in whatever military escapades they see fit, only one of them actually knows what that means to the rank and file.

 

[lovett]

Basically, one must assume that ~95% of what he's said in the last few months will be reneged upon as soon as he achieves office.