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Is there any way to die in Erebus?

Discussion in 'Fall from Heaven Lore' started by apenpaap, Aug 26, 2009.

  1. apenpaap

    apenpaap Tsar of all the Internets

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    If you die in Erebus, you go to Hell or Heaven, right? So you really live on in a different place in a different form. But say you're sick and tired of that and want to actually die, would there be any way to do that?
     
  2. Kael

    Kael Chieftain

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    There has been some theories that those that have their souls consumed (by vampires or sheaim magic for example) would cease to be. But I like to think that the soul is truly immortal and that even in those extreme cases some part of the person lives on, even if it is just as a haunted shadow in the person that consumed it or a reflection of the spell the soul was used for.

    As afterlife's go the closest you will probably get is in Arawn's realm where the dead are held within endless dreams.
     
  3. loocas

    loocas Chieftain

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    Partying with the Balseraphs is probably the closest to oblivion you can get.
     
  4. mahazel

    mahazel Chieftain

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    Look out! He isn't apenpaap, she's Os-Gabella!
     
  5. apenpaap

    apenpaap Tsar of all the Internets

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    Damn! Foiled again! And I would've gotten away with it if it weren't for you!
     
  6. Onionsoilder

    Onionsoilder Reaver

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    If I understand it, Heaven is sealed off from everybody, including the gods. When somebody dies, they typically enter their god's Vault. Each god has his/her own Vault, with the exception of Agares, who owns Hell. Souls that enter Hell are supposedly stuck there for all eternity, though any souls who turn into demons can probably leave into the real world once Hyborem is summoned.

    I'm not sure what happens to souls that enter a Vault. I like to think that after a time, they eventually enter back into the world ala reincarnation, though I don't know about this for sure. There also appears to be souls that never leave Erebus, and wander around for a while(read Cassiel's civilopedia). I think the only way for a soul to be destroyed is for it to be consumed by a vampire/demon/god - unlike Kael I don't think they live on as part of what ate them, but rather their power is absorbed and the soul fades, unable to sustain itself. I also thought that souls are destroyed when killed with the Netherblade, but apparently that isn't the case, as Kael didn't mention it.
     
  7. KillerClowns

    KillerClowns Chieftain

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    Another possibility for perma-death would be ascending (I.E. being around when the Altar is constructed), which might do the job. The exact nature of the True Heaven is unknown, but if I had to guess, I'd say that [wiki]Nirvana[/wiki] would be a facet of it. If the One's judgment is as harsh as Basium seems to think it will be, the evil will probably be annihilated, which, if you're actively seeking non-existence, would also do quite nicely. (EDIT: Note, however, that Basium never met the One, and therefore, is basically guessing from secondhand knowledge and the assumption that the One would share his attitudes.) Personally, I'd take Nirvana, but I can see Os-Gabella actively insisting on such a fate for herself, and perhaps even being granted it as her form of Nirvana.
    The Netherblade doesn't harm the soul. To the contrary, it actually keeps it a bit more stable, if only to increase its usefulness to Laroth.
     
  8. Kyzarc Fotjage

    Kyzarc Fotjage Rise Up

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    I thought that if you ascended to godhood auric style and then got stabbed by the Godslayer you're either dead permanently, body and soul, or in True Heaven with the One, so ascension could be a way to commit suicide. Os-Gabella should try it, it's crazy enough that it might just work.
     
  9. KillerClowns

    KillerClowns Chieftain

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    Spoiler :
    Auric seemed to do just fine after being killed with the Netherblade, ending up in Arwan's vault, although that may have had more to do with being slain by the Netherblade instead of the Godslayer than anything else.


    IIRC, we still don't know what happened to Mulcarn. He might be an indistinguishable and unremarkable soul in Arwan's vault (or his own) for all we know.
     
  10. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    He didn't ask about alcohol. They serve this concoction in other lands too, although perhaps not of the same quality/potency.


    The True Heaven is sealed off, but heaven is also used as a synonym for the vault of a good god. Likewise, hell is the term used for the Vault of any evil god. The Good Gods' heavens are completely seperate (not that there aren't a few passages connected them to each other and to Erebus), but all the hells are closely interlinked and form levels of one big Hell. (I tend to use uppercase letters to denote the true heaven and the combined hell, and lowercase letters for an individual heaven or hell vault.)


    The top level of Hell is the hell of Mulcarn, who was the least evil of the evil gods. He never wanted mankind to be created and he really disliked how man respected him less than any other god, but he was fairly kind to those few humans who worshiped him and his priesthood was benign enough to avoid persecution by the good nations of the Age of Magic. His hell is not comfortable, but it isn't really painful. It is cold, especially at the top near his throne at the peak of the Mountain Mulyr (which may have actually broken into Erebus itself and become Letum Frigus once Mulcarn died and parts of the palace made of Ice instead of stone melted). The lowlands of is hell consist of bogs where the souls without the motivation to move on languish and huddle together as Tar Demons until they get tired of this existence and are ready for further processing. Many (maybe most) of those who end up in Mulcarn's hell did not really deserve to go to hell and should really have gone to the Netherworld instead, but the evil gods are very vigilant about claiming anyone they possibly can. Mulcarn's hell acts as a filter to store souls until they are ready to be further corrupted.

    Souls then go to Mammon's hell, a huge and busy city that fills the whole plane. It is filled with temples to all gods except Mammon (including many cults that worship good gods in evil ways, and many that worship gods that never existed), who views the whole city as his temple and is very proud of it for its own sak and not just as a cog in the machine. Upon entering, each soul is given a single coin, and told that once they get 7 (I think that's the number) that they can buy their way out. Generally, these souls have their memories wiped, although I imagine there may be ways to buy them back. Everything in the city is a scam, as everyone needs to trick others into giving up their coins in order to escape. Well, not quite everyone, a few decide they like it there and so don't want coins for themselves, but these tend to be the greediest and most corrupt of all, the ones who recognize how dealing instead of using coins can bring them great power. Those who fare worst sometimes have their minds wiped clean and are brought back with another coin to try again, just to move the system along. I believe that most souls that are actually bad enough to deserve to go to hell skip Mulcarn's hall and start out here.

    Those who can afford to escape find themselves in a much worse situation. They are reborn small and weak (and without the ability to use magic to any significant degree even if they were great mages in life) in the eternal battle ground of Camulos's hell, where they learn revel in inflicting pain and eventually also to enjoy suffering. The strong hunt in packs and torture the weak, but when someone gets strong enough that he can create a hierarchy and bring some order to the chaos the earth reaches up and grabs him to take him to Aeron's hell.


    Aeron's hell is a great temple or academy, where demons are trained and refined. It is rigidly hierarchical, and extremely sophisticated. Souls enter this hell as Imps, to be trained in guile and magic. Many are sent to Erebus to serve and corrupt mortals as part of their training. Only the most evil men can skip directly to this hell, and no one ever starts further along. Followers of the Ashen Veil try hard to become evil enough to start here, so they can skip the torment of Camulos and go straight to refining their magic. Those who excel at their training become demon lords, and may proceed to the final level or choose to go to any other hell as an agent of its god. Many choose to return to Camulos's hell in hunting parties, where they can hunt down weaker souls without serious risk of becoming the prey.


    Agares rules the deepest hell, a barren wasteland formed from the remains of his once marvelous world of Nyx. He is generally to depressed to really do anything. Demon Lords who make it here are allowed to set up their own fiefdoms where they rule as sovereigns, and they generally spend some time warring against each other and trying to win Agares' affection, but that gets boring after a while. Many demon kingdoms have simply faded away into the dust.


    When Bhall was a good goddess she ruled a holy heaven of flame, but her fall ripped this vault to pieces. Fragments likely remain in place, some fragments may have been integrated into other heavens (especially Lugus's; I suspect that Bhal's heaven was called the Empyrean, meaning "on fire," before her fall, but that this term now refers to Lugus's vault and the home of most the Seraphim), and other fragments have fallen to Erebus (to be made into the Scorched staff). It has been conjectured that she will eventually gather the fragments together to create a hell that will be joined to the great machine of Hell, but this has not happened yet. For now, she dwells with Agares in Nyx. Her presence has been a great inspiration for the forces of darkness, and most demonic activity in Nyx happens on the border of the regions of darkness and flame. Her arrival and recent awakening is what inspired Hyborem (and many other demon lords who may not really like him) to set out to conquer Erebus.

    Ceridwen doesn't exactly have a vault; she rules the void in between. Every portal, every gateway, every link of any kind between worlds is her vault. It has no space, but is the largest of all. It has no substance, but there are gaps in the void that contain pocket dimensions of other aspects, where the laws of physics vary widely. Reaching out to these allows very potent magic. None of Ceridwen's demons know more than a tiny fraction of her vault, yet they know of more worlds than even the gods. Ceridwen is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma, and her vault is much the same. Some have hypothesized that Ceridwen knows ways back to the True Heaven (as well as to world worse than hell, and maybe to the world where we live), but she certainly hasn't shared these secrets with anyone yet.


    While difficult, it is possible to work one's way out of hell by exemplifying the virtues opposite the vices the hells are trying to impart. Many souls have started the long trek out, but very few have finished. The furthest most could hope to get is the vault of Esus, God of Deception. This vault is designed to make escapees think they have succeeded. It is filled with a myriad of changelings and illusionists, mostly living creatures rather than demons. They replicate the soul's former life exactly, but then start changing things. It is designed to disillusion the soul, to devalue all it held dear and all that motivated it to want to escape. Souls find their duties and their love lives so empty and sour that they want them to end, and eventually choose to return to hell rather live the life they so loved but have come to find intolerable.








    I like to think that Dagda has no vault, or rather, Erebus is his vault. This is the plain designed to be in balance, and a plain of pure balance makes no sense. Dagda also chastised the other gods for making vaults of their own liking, and it seems pretty clear he had not made his own by the time he invited all the gods to work together on this world.


    I see no reason to think that Cassiel should be treated any differently than an unaligned mortal soul. Demons may try to claim him, but he knows their wiles and despises how any god claims souls to serve them, and so would insist on going to Arawn's Netherworld to await the coming of The One. (Hmm...now that I think of it though, Cassiel and the other Archangels are likely in the same boat as Anesidora and Gabella. They have immortal souls, but not a true divine birthright from The One, so his time in the Netherworld may weigh very heavily on him and make him become destructive although not really evil.)

    Souls do not leave Erebus immediately. Most find it very hard to resist the draw of the Wells of Creation (passageways from Erebus to the Netherworld), but this attraction depends heavily on distance from the well so those not near one may first wander for many years. It is also possible for a well to be closed, in which case the souls would be attracted there but unable to enter and so would instead haunt the lands around it and be easy prey for necromancers.

    I think devout souls may naturally find their way to their gods' vaults too, but they often need help. Demons are very eager to claim souls they shouldn't have, so Junil found it necessary to create an order of Angels (Valkeries) to guard souls from angels and guide them to their next lives. Other gods may have done likewise.


    There is only one case of real reincarnation: Eve, aka Epona, the wife of Kylorin. This is not a natural occurrence, but a curse that Kylorin had Ceridwen place upon her soul, so they he could be with his wife again without her body being tainted by her infidelity or her mind recalling the man for whom she left him or his reaction to that. Other souls may return as Angels, Demons, are the Undead. Only resurrection spells can return someone to life, and these have limitations. It is nearly impossible to resurrect someone whose soul has left Erebus for another vault unless the god in whose vault the soul dwells blesses the return. (Sucellus got Arawn's permission to bring Arthendain back, and I think the Doviello Shamen convinced Camulos to let Charadon return. ) Souls from the Netherworld sometimes escape, but Gyra and her angels fight to stop that. The Once Elves also have laws demanding that no soul that escapes into their Well of Shadows from the Netherworld ever be allowed to pass into Erebus again.



    The Netherblade certainly does not destroy the soul. It causes the soul to instantly be transported to the Netherworld, specifically to the part of the Netherworld that Laroth rules. The scenarios seem to imply that this happens as soon as the blade makes it cut, before the victim would have time to die a natural death, and that souls taken in this way are bound to the Netherworld indefinitely (i.e., until the blade is destroyed).

    While the Netherblade itself does not harm the soul, Laroth may very well be able to. It is known that his skills include the ability to forge souls into powerful artifacts, but it is not known whether this means that the items are possessed or that that the souls are consumed in a Sheaim/Vampire-like ritual and their power used in the weapon. The Netherblade was likely forged from thousands of souls that Laroth found too weak to serve as soldiers.

    I suspect that Gabella was not designed so that her flesh and soul can seperate like a mortal's can, so the Netherblade may not be enough to trap her in the Netherworld. Well, it might, but it would probably draw her flesh with it and leave her in an inbetween state in the next world, like [edit: something I read in Ashes of Brigdarrow that I likely shouldn't share, and am not that sure about anyway]. At her level, she could just teleport to the Netherworld (or any level or hell, or maybe even to any heaven), and the Netherblade is likely not enough to hold here there. Perhaps it could help her find a means of suicide, but it alone wouldn't work.


    I believe that Kael has explicitly stated that Mulcarn's soul did not pass to the Netherworld, but seems to have been completely destroyed. The Godslayer should however have no special power execpt against gods.





    I prefer to think that death by the Godslayer (if a god) of by having the soul consumed is complete destruction as far as anyone in Erebus in concerned, but that the soul does in fact live on. I like to think that once drained off all its strength it simply cannot manifest itself in any way, that not even a god could detect it, and that it will remain completely unconscious. However, The One would find restoring such a soul effortless. He might grant them the honor of being restored to the True Heaven with him now, but I find it more likely that they would be left to rest until the day he returns to judge the world.


    I suspect that when The One returns, he will probably be more lenient that Basium would like. He would probably sever all the gods from their precepts, and give the wicked another chance to repent. I don't picture The One doing anything to exact punishment from his creations, but he may well allow those who don't want to exist anymore to exist no longer, or provide a place for those who reject him to live on alone and make their own fates. I imagine that the old Erebus and even the Old True Heaven would pass away, and that each member of mankind (and related races) would be given equal say with the gods in designing a new Heaven and a new Erebus--but this time, The One's helpers would not be divided among 21 precepts but would all be free to experience his love in full.
     
  11. Kyzarc Fotjage

    Kyzarc Fotjage Rise Up

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    Who's vault did Duin go to?

    So for all practical purposes the Godslayer kills gods and if Os-Gabella ascends to the godhood of some precept then she could die via Godslayer?
     
  12. FireBlaze

    FireBlaze Chieftain

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    I think he was (Or MC has theorized) That he was in Camulous's (Spelling?) vault/hell when he was resurrected.
     
  13. TC01

    TC01 Chieftain

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    No, he was- in Mahala's pedia entry she mentions "they never should have brought him back from Camulos's hell" or something like that.
     
  14. Diamondeye

    Diamondeye So Happy I Could Die

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    I read this thread until I hit the massive wall of MC-ness. Is there anything you don't know? :p
     
  15. Onionsoilder

    Onionsoilder Reaver

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    Oh, I thought they were talking about Charadon. Reading it again, I guess it could be Duin...
     
  16. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    Charadon definitely came back from the hell of Camulos. It is extremely likely that the same can be said of the Baron Halfmorn, but I know of nothing in the scenarios or pedia that states it for sure.

    Duin is known to have been a very devout worshiper of the God of Chaos, and so almost certainly went trait to his vault. Lycanthropy was a "gift" that Camulos granted him, and which the god probably wanted to see come back after the age of ice lead to the extinction of the werewolf.

    Charadon's vassalage to Mulcarn likely meant that he went to the hell of ice first, but discord was strong in his soul so he probably moved on quickly and spent most the time between his death and resurrection in the third level of hell. Camulos was the patron of his tribe of Doviello, although other tribes of wild men weren't quite that wild and instead worshiped less evil deities such as Kilmorph. (Saverous's Doviello clan was loyal to the Mother of Stone.)
     
  17. Psychic_Llamas

    Psychic_Llamas Wizard in the Making

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    so then what happened to the Aifons? where are their Souls? did Ceridwen take them and hide them away or something?
     
  18. cyther

    cyther Lord of the Dance

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    Maybe they became something else. A sort of LOTR thing like the orks.
     
  19. thomas.berubeg

    thomas.berubeg Wandering the World

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    We really don't know.
     
  20. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    Actually, Kael knows, but he thinks that the real answer is not as cool as some of the speculation about it and prefers that the Overlords remain as mysterious as possible so he has decided never to share the secret.
     

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