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Is There Meaning Behind Firaxis' Brave New World New Cover Art?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by OzzyKP, May 1, 2013.

  1. mrwho

    mrwho Prince

    Apr 13, 2013
    No, that's not true at all. In fact, Marxist theory a truly communist country is stateless. One's views of authoritarianism/libertarianism is distinct from whether they are left or right. You can be a libertarian far-left or an authoritarian far-right as well as the more commonly assumed opposite.

    It's also wrong to call fascism either left or right IMO.
  2. Inhalaattori

    Inhalaattori Emperor

    Aug 4, 2003
    Up North
    The difference between "order" of Stalin and "autocracy" of Hitler was minimal. What were the big real differences?

    Saying Nazism is far-right ideology is very questionable at least from American perspective. American Republican ideology has less in common with National Socialist ideology in most issues than American democrats ideology.
  3. Arwon


    Oct 5, 2006
    The issue there is that American labelling is silly, and the Democrats aren't really left wing.
  4. Hans Castorp

    Hans Castorp Prince

    Apr 15, 2013
    Cambridge, UK
    Close. The distinction does originate in France, in the Legislative Assembly of 1791-2 to be precise. The distinction does not refer to a lay/clerical distinction, but to the side of the assembly on which the two principle parties of the time sat. On the one side the 'moderate' Feuillants (the real anti-revolutionary 'right' were not to be found within the Assembly by this this time), on the 'left' the members of the Jacobin club, yet to split into its Girondin and Montagnard factions. The Jacobins were noted for their anti-clericalism and for desiring stronger measures against the emigre nobles.

    As to the subsequent history of the left-right distinction, in Europe the focus traditionally lay on contrasting attitudes towards property rights rather than upon an authoritarian-anti-authoritarian contrast. Arguments about the 'real' meaning of concepts like the left-right distinction tend to rapidly run into the ground. Any concept with a history - and this goes for all the concepts we deploy in thinking about politics - will tend to evade precise definition. What remains is the history of their shifting uses over time.
  5. OzzyKP

    OzzyKP Emperor

    Dec 16, 2000
    Washington, DC USA
  6. blackcatatonic

    blackcatatonic Queen of Meme

    Feb 14, 2012
    In answer to the OP: no, but it does suggest that Ideologies are going to be pretty important in the late-game. I predict whopping diplomatic penalties for choosing the 'wrong' one, impacting on World Congress votes, and obviously the city-flipping thing seems to be mostly Ideology and Tourism-driven.

    I do think the cover art is pretty neat, though, and certainly more interesting than the G&K art.
  7. jonrock411

    jonrock411 Chieftain

    Apr 27, 2013
    Indiana, America
    Quite right, my response was in reference to the fact that the general person would associate the two with those respective sides. Personally I think placing anything of that nature into groups like that only leads to trouble.

    As for the questioning on who the people are supposed to be, if any one, I think it's more an amalgamation of leaders associated with the respective ideology. For example, the Freedom leader may be reminiscent of Lincoln but the setting brings to mind more FDR, especially with the microphone, similarly "Castro" seems to be in somewhere more Soviet than Cuban.
  8. BobDole

    BobDole American Leader in Civ VI

    Mar 1, 2010
    Yeah, it's obvious we need more information sooner rather than later.....
    No, there is not.
  9. pedrobarbosa

    pedrobarbosa Chieftain

    Mar 27, 2013
    Are you kidding?
    Just because for Hannah Arendt the both are totalitary? Neither her could say that, the difference is so huge man.
  10. bouncymischa

    bouncymischa Synthetic Genie

    Nov 28, 2012
    In a bottle
    Pretty much this. Part of the problem with trying to simplify politics is that "political ideology" ultimately encompasses a huge number of factors, particularly since it is typically treated as the catch-all category to discuss pretty much any factor affecting any community of people. This means it really has an innumerable number of axes upon which any particular viewpoint can lie -- I know I've seen some people suggest a 2-dimensional representation of political ideologies using two axes, but it's really some kind of weird n-spatial multidimensional thing.

    For example, on the social spectrum, the "right" tends to fall on the side of stricter social regulation (particularly through religion), while the "left" tends towards greater social freedoms. On the other hand, economically the right tends to favor greater economic freedoms and less government regulation, while the left favors fewer economic freedoms in exchange for increased government support. So depending on which axis you look at, both the left and the right can stand for increased freedom or increased control.

    It doesn't help the situation any that people can then cherry-pick which factors they support or oppose, and "simplify" the discussion by presenting their own belief as being universally good, and the opposing beliefs as being universally bad.

    I do find the BNW cover art to be perhaps some of the most interesting in the Civ series thus far -- if nothing else, it's one of the few that actually evokes the idea of a civilization. Covers like G&K basically emphasized the concept of "you as the leader", while some of the covers in the Civ 4 series played up the progression of military development and wonders, but I haven't seen many that played up the whole "hey, you've got cities and a national culture/identity" concept.

    Given that the culture system is getting reworked, along with the ideologies, I think this cover actually does an interesting job of playing up the idea that each civilization will be unique its in own ways, as a product of the choices you make. Probably one of the reasons I actually really like this cover.
  11. vcutag

    vcutag Warlord

    Jun 11, 2004
    Richmond, Virginia
    We're the first generation to grow up with video games and were kids when the original NES came out. A lot of us never "grew out of it." :)
  12. ImperialChaos

    ImperialChaos President

    Apr 20, 2013
    United States
    Wow, what happened with this thread? If you guys wanna talk about the fundamentals of the different political ideologies take it to the tavern. ;)

    As I said before, it was a great blog post Ozzy, even if I don't see the meaning you suggested.
  13. codepoet

    codepoet Commander of Cubicle 42

    Nov 17, 2008
    Thanks for clarifying a rampant misconception.
    People often confuse style of government for social policy and economic policy.
    It's further clarified by simply looking up the full original name for the Nazi Party in Germany. Italy formed the Italian Social Republic.

    Autocracy, Freedom and Order are excellent divisions to portray the historic reality correctly. I really like how Firaxis had honored this in the game!

    Nazi Germany, The Italian Social Republic and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics were all Authoritarian governments with differing economic and social policies. China, today, is also Communist (Authoritarian), but allows more capitalist economic activity than the USSR did for example.
    The United States and most of Europe on the other hand are Representative Republics or Constitutional Republics.

    Because the Authoritarian forms of government also set themselves up as Republics and refer to themselves as such... the matter is confused for the layman.
  14. andrewlt

    andrewlt Prince

    Jul 27, 2004
    It's only that high because they count casual games, online board/card games, mobile games, you get the idea. The big-budget AAA action titles still skew very young. Turn-based games are likely somewhere in the middle.
  15. aluelkdf

    aluelkdf Prince

    Mar 5, 2012
    There is this idea that communism is far left and fascism is far right, like they are somehow polar opposites.

    In my opinion they are basically the same. Both systems oppress the people and, have secret police, prison camps, etc. They 2 systems have more common ground than differences.

    But of course history is always written by the Victor. The invasion of Poland was supposedly the reason for the start of WWII. But both Germany and the USSR invaded Poland. So why did the allies declare war only on Germany and leave the USSR alone?

    How could the Anglo-American empire justify to the masses making one nation the mortal enemy, while allying with the other? The only way to do this would be to make people think that Germany and the USSR were somehow polar opposites. The leader of one nation was vilanized (rightly so) for political reasons, while the leader of the other nation was the "good guy" for political reasons. After all, Stalin was the friendly uncle Joe. When in reality Stalinist Russia was just as brutal as the Axis nations. (And the anglo-Americans were too, look at Dresden for example).

    So I think the difference between communism and fascism has been largely exaggerated for political reasons.
  16. wigwam

    wigwam Prince

    Mar 23, 2013
    Oh, I'll bite.

    It's true that there were many genuinely socialist elements to Nazi policy (there are some uncomfortable similarities between German and American domestic policy in the '30s, too). That said, the differences are really big. The simplest distinctions to draw would be that Soviet Communism, even under Stalin, was essentially inclusive, whereas fascism in all its forms (but especially Nazism) was exclusive, and that Communism was progressive, whereas fascism was reactionary.

    Communism had many failings and used unforgivably violent means, but its ends, at least, were noble (maybe misguided, but noble). The Communists wanted to organize the entire world into a peaceful, equitable, progressive society. They had a kind of teleological notion of history, believing that all of human society naturally advanced into more sophisticated, more just forms over time, and that each stage in human history (feudalism, capitalism) existed in order to give rise to the next, and they thought that if all human energy, creativity, labor, etc. could be harnessed in common and properly organized by the State, we could all live in a sort of earthly Paradise. It was practically religious, ironically enough.

    The Nazis also wanted to create a peaceful, equitable society, but they intended for that society to be open only to ethnic Germans, and they were willing to enslave the rest of Europe in order to support it. Plus they wanted to murder a good chunk of Europe just for being different. They oriented their society towards Germanic mythology and ancient history, which is a big part of why people peg them as "right-wing." The same is true of the Italian Fascists, who oriented themselves towards ancient Rome, and of the Spanish Nationalists, who oriented themselves towards the Church and the monarchy. The Germans and Italians weren't Luddites by any means, and in fact were pioneers of all sorts of (mostly military) technology, but all the fascists were extremely hostile to social progress. They all wanted to return their nations to past states that they perceived to be not just glorious, but also morally superior. Arch-conservative ends, even if the means sometimes looked like socialism.
  17. cybrxkhan

    cybrxkhan Asian Xwedodah

    Aug 10, 2006
    The Universe
    I still count casual games, online games and mobile games as video games. Even then that still surprised me, to be honest.

    Though I think the average age of even big budget AAA games is growing older as well, as my generation (and people within a decade of my age) get oldder and older. Heck, I was completely mind blown when I overhead one of my professors in his 30s or so complain about his Xbox internet connection one time and how that prevented him from playing with his friends. The games may skew young, but I don't think they skew as young as most of us would assume.

    Not to mention that an older audience for games makes sense I have realized. You guys with real jobs and stable incomes have more money to spend than us starving young people with no real jobs.
  18. Kimuyama

    Kimuyama Prince

    Jun 11, 2010
    Västra Götaland, Sweden
    I need to point this out urgently, notice how everything on the Order side is pointed to the left? The statues hand, the smoke, even the hammer; Likewise, the Autocracy points to the right: the tanks, the airplanes, the leaders hand, the buildings.
    The middle is pointed upwards.

    All these lines meet at the V, which is also mirrored in the spotlights in the middle field.
    All is part of a greater conspiracy, probably.
    That's all I had to say.
  19. True_Candyman

    True_Candyman Emperor

    Oct 23, 2011
    If you turn the V upside down....

  20. pedrobarbosa

    pedrobarbosa Chieftain

    Mar 27, 2013
    States with social programs are not socialist states. Socialism and communism are based in a production system, not in a social program.

    China has a capitalist production mode, so, china is capitalist. It cant exist a state with political communism and economical capitalism, it's a great error. China has a authoritary capitalist system, it's not communist.

    The Fascism is based on a idea of unity, of nation, it's the opposite thinking of the communism (a global state, where there are not borders).

    They are VERY different in their objectives and their conception of society.

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